Discerning Apparitions

Thank you David for the encouraging words. Wow Quis ut Deus! Your kind response to my story is amazing and so very much appreciated. I need to pray about and ponder your most thoughtful offer. Their names are Angel and Butterfly.God Bless You!

 

What awesome kindness from Quis ut Deus. There is still loving kindness out there. Awesome.

 

The following for your two beautiful babies, Angel and Butterfly.

Taken from the book 'Cot Death a mothers experience'
Authors Note: This poem was written by a Priest, 'Father Ray Hobbs, C.S.S.R. New Zealand Redemptrist Priest', for his nephew David, who died of SIDs. I have taken the liberty of inserting Erins name.

Little Erin,
In your dreaming,
Did you hear a creature cry?
See it burst,
Its tight cocoon,
Flowering to the sun and sky?
Did you hold your breath in wonder,
Joyful let the world slip by.
Break the bonds, that would confine you,
Spread your wings so low, so high,
And softly die?
Who could hold you?
Free wee Spirit,
Though we wingless ones might try,
Far from us though never parting.
Love us still, bright Butterfly.

 

Josephite, the poem that you posted was beautiful and it truly touched my heart. May I tell you one more thing about our little Butterfly? 3 months after losing the baby that we so much wanted, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and would have most likely died had the pregnancy continued. Though devastated at the time, God had a plan and we were able to adopt our beautiful son. Sorry to veer off the topic of this thread concerning discernment, but the poem was just so lovely and I wanted you to know the rest of the story! God is so good!

 

My Nanna would tell me many stories of the past, one of these concerned my Grandad and his mother.

My Grandad was born in 1907 [I think] and his mum, my great grandmother, who I never met, suffered the following.
She was married to my great grandad and they had a little 2 year boy, as well as my grandfather who was 3 months old. My great grandad worked off the property and one day, while he worked and my great grandnana tended to her home duties, their 2 year old son, went missing from the homestead. He was found by my great grandnanna, drowned in a dam they had on their small farm. This of course was devastating for them both! but within 2 months of this, my great grandad died at his logging work as well.

My great grandmother was alone with a small baby and and it was very hard in those times when Australia did not have any type of welfare for people in this situation and she struggled with poverty and no income at all.

She was known to say..........'God has been so good and merciful to me!......He took my first born son because He knew I was about to lose my husband and He knew I would never have been able to look after and supply for both children after my husband died.

My great grandmother did remarry and she had another six children.

Personally I believe we will never know why God takes some of us as children or infants but I know that God has a purpose in all His ways.

 

Yes Quis ut Deus, Josephite, so many things to reflect on and ponder concerning this thread. Medjugorje continues to be a mystery to me. First, the good fruits of love, devotion, and hope in the messages. Then, the problems of financial gain and most of all, as St. Faustina expressed so beautifully, the importance of obedience to authority, which would be the local Bishop. Oh Holy Spirit, please show us the Truth in all things, thank you for the gift of our Blessed Mother, Your Spouse, and for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ!

 

MonicaHope, I don't know if you are aware; we are supposed to be obedient to those placed directly in authority over us. We don't have a duty to climb the hierarchical ladder looking for approval at every level, just the one directly placed over us by God. They carry the duty of care in the sight of God.

In the case of Medjugorje, the problem is between the local Bishop and the Franciscan Abbot.

The parishioners have a duty of obedience to their parish Priest who is a Franciscan. And the Franciscan Priest has a duty of obedience to his superior. If there is a dispute, the obedience issue has to be addressed at a more senior level, and we see that Rome has stepped in on this occasion.

 

Julia,

I think this is how it works: Parish priests do not have any independent authority, but their authority in a parish is given because the bishop has granted them faculties. The authority resides in the bishop, who is the shepherd; they are his representatives, so to speak. It almost always works so that we should listen to pastors, but there are messy exceptions. I heard about the issues between the Franciscans and the secular clergy when I went to Medjugorje, but the teaching/ruling authority in any diocese belongs to a bishop. The Franciscan priests and brothers are under the authority of their religious order superior, but not the people.

(I am sure someone will correct this if I got it wrong.)

 

it was no accident Our Lady came to the area as Queen ofPeace,the area is a bubbling cauldron

 

Spirit Daily today has a link to an article on discerning miracles, "A Church of Miracles" from OSV Weekly (which used to be called Our Sunday Visitor). It discusses at a basic level the different kinds of miracles the church examines, including apparitions and messages.

It presents a very useful summary on alleged heavenly messages and miracles of the type we discuss:

"More complex are those cases that involve reports of visions and messages of Jesus, the Virgin Mary or the saints. While authentic Eucharistic miracles and bleeding statues are incredible signs undoubtedly with great unspoken meaning for the faithful, the alleged instances of a person receiving divine communication require a special level of thorough and swift attention by Church authorities in order that people are not lead astray. Science has attempted with mixed results to evaluate with brain scans and other testing to reveal and understand the brain activity of the visionary. In the end, however, the Church must establish whether the witness is reliable and trustworthy. Throughout the ages, over 2,500 Marian apparitions have been reported but only a tiny fraction have been validated."

Not surprisingly, Fr. Ripperger also discussed the importance of examining the character of anyone claiming to be receiving messages.

Ripperger noted approved mystics are often unwilling to share their experiences, often only writing out communications under obedience, that is, under the direction of a spiritual director or other church authority. This was the case with Sr. Lucia in later life, with St. Faustina and Mother Teresa. Historically, true visionaries do not seek attention for themselves.

In several stories I have read about mystics, the devil often appears and offers earthy rewards of fame, fortune, an easy life. I think this happened with one of the Medjugorje visionaries, who rejected the offer.

 

An article by Msgr. Charles Pope, a wonderful writer in the Archdiocese of Washington. This was also in Spirit Daily. In it, he warns against false prophets.

Beware the Deception of False Prophets
Msgr. Charles Pope • July 31, 2016 • 24 Comments
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In today’s first reading (Monday of the 18th Week) the Prophet Jeremiah denounces the false prophets of his day, who promise all sorts grand visions for Israel despite its sin. Jeremiah says to the people, By breaking a wooden yoke, you forge an iron yoke! (Jer 28:13) In other words, by failing to repent (breaking the wooden yoke) you shall know an iron yoke. (Think about the addiction to sin of many who do not show restraint earlier in life.) To the false prophets of his day Jeremiah said, The LORD has not sent you, and you have raised false confidence in this people (Jer 28:15). Confidence is a good thing, but false confidence is terrible in its deception.

False prophets deceive God’s people; their words are worse than silence. There are many false prophets today who tickle people’s ears, assuring them that what God calls sins is actually progressive and glamorous.

A great clarion call goes up quite often in Scripture: “Do not be deceived!” This call must go up as never before, because we live in times of great deception. So many have been deceived about marriage, sexuality, the existence of God, and what life is really all about. And while there is widespread deception in our current times, deceiving and being deceived are common human tendencies, especially given the fallen human condition. Scripture speaks often of this problem, and we do well to look to some of the texts and see what they have to teach us.

Perhaps it is good to look first to the Latin and Greek roots of the word deceive.

Latin: The Latin root of deceive is decipere, meaning to ensnare (de (of or up) + capere (to seize or take)). And thus the Latin emphasizes our tendency to be easily caught up or carried away, to be ensnared by error. It evokes the image of an animal being carried off as prey in the mouth of a lion. We are so easily carried away by the latest fashions, trends, and thinking of the world. And having been carried away, we are ensnared by error and to some degree cut off from the truth.

Greek: There are several words in the Greek New Testament that are translated as deceive in English. By far the most common is πλανάω (planao), meaning to go astray, to wander off course, to deviate from the correct path, to roam into error, to be misled. (Planao is the also the Greek root of the English word planet (literally, wandering body)). In the Greek New Testament, this term nearly always conveys the sin of roaming from the truth. And thus we see that the Greek emphasizesthat we go astray or are led astray, that we wander off. Isaiah the prophet lamented, All we like sheep have gone astray; every one to his own way (Is 53:6). Yes, and if sheep are wayward animals, human beings are more so, for at least a sheep knows its master’s voice. Too many of us will listen to and follow anyone but the Lord.
Continued...

 

We humans are involved in deception in three different ways.

I. We are sometimes the victim of deception. The Scriptures frequently warn, “Do not be deceived.” Jesus warned, At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many (Mat 24:11).

St. Paul also lamented false apostles and Judaizers who misled many. He warned, savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them (Acts 20:29-30). He also spoke of some who will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1).

St. John warned of the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world (1 John 4:3).

Thus to some degree we are victims of deceivers. The Scriptures warn us to be on our guard: Do not be deceived! We are not to allow these deceivers to lead us astray, to make us wander about in error and sin. We are to resist them and see them for the deceivers they are.

II. We can be among those who deceive (though hopefully this is less frequent).This refers to something deeper than the more common human foible of lying. The deception here involves misleading people in matters of the true faith.

God warns deceivers, Why do you boast of evil, you wicked man? Why do you boast all day long, you who are a disgrace in the eyes of God? You who practice deceit, your tongue plots destruction; it is like a sharpened razor. You love evil rather than good, falsehood rather than speaking the truth. You love every harmful word, you deceitful tongue! Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin (Psalm 52:1-5).

God declares a curse on those shepherds who mislead His flock: “Woe to the shepherds who mislead and scatter the sheep of My pasture!” declares the LORD. Therefore, thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning the shepherds who are tending My people: “You have scattered My flock and driven them away, and have not attended to them; behold, I am about to attend to you for the evil of your deeds” (Jer 23:1-3).

Jesus declares, If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea (Mat 18:6).

St. Paul speaks of the lot of deceivers: But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived (2 Tim 3:13).

III. We can connive in deception. This final category is perhaps the most troubling of all. It is a kind of a middle ground between being a victim of deception and a perpetrator of deception. We allow deceivers to speak to us, and not only do we not rebuke them for their deception, we actually perk up our ears and say, in effect, “Please go on; tell me more!”

We do this because to some degree we want to be deceived. We want to be affirmed in our sin, in our weakness. Many want the truth to be watered down and are delighted to listen to those who call into question the demands of righteousness. Yes, many of us connive; we enter into partnership with the deceivers.

Many of the warnings that we “not be deceived” are not simply alerting us to the presence of deceivers; they are cautioning us to be wary our own tendency to enter into agreement with those would deceive us. In this context, the warning, “Do not be deceived,” takes on more of this tone:

“Don’t kid yourself; don’t tell lies to yourself; don’t go on playing the fool. You know better. The voice of God echoing in your conscience bears witness to the fact that you’re lying to yourself and you’re letting others lie to you.”

Premier among the “conniving” texts is St. Paul’s warning to Timothy: For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear, and will turn away from the truth (2 Tim 4:3).

 

Continued...

FALSE PROPHETS AND THE HARM THEY DO

What are some of the common things people “want” to be deceived into believing? A brief survey of Scripture reveals this. (I have boldfaced the various forms of the word deceive to illustrate that God is teaching us about the various forms of this sinful connivance.)

A. That our actions will not have consequences: Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life (Galatians 6:7-8).

B. That faith can be perfunctory, intellectual, or mere lip service;that good intentions are enough; that one can love the world: But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves … If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world (James 1:22-27).

Hear the word of the Lord, all you men of Judah who enter these gates to worship the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.” If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless. Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe—safe to do all these detestable things?” Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the Lord (Jeremiah 7:1-11).

C. That sexual sin is no big deal: Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).

Be sure of this, no fornicator, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. For you were once darkness, but now you are light Therefore, do not be partners with them. in the Lord. Live as children of light … and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness (Eph 5:5-11).

When lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren (James 1:16).

D. That regular consort with sinners will not affect us: Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame (1 Cor 15:33).

But encourage each other daily, while it is still today, so that none of you is hardened by sin’s deception (Heb 3:13).

E. That we can wholly avoid deception and error apart from Scripture and the teaching of the Church: Jesus answered them, “You are deceived, because you don’t know the Scriptures or the power of God” (Matt 22:29).

Wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the Truth and so be saved (1 Thess 2:10).

This, then, is a brief excursus on the lamentable human tendency to wander, to be carried off, to be deceived. And frankly, too many of us want to be deceived. Be alert to this deep drive rooted in sloth and pride; learn its moves and despise its lures.

 

Wow! What an appropriate reflection for our time.

 

It seems appropriate to copy this item from Mark Mallett here:

On Medjugorje


IN the over a thousand writings on this website, I have mentioned Medjugorje relatively few times. I have not ignored it, as some wish me to, for the simple fact that I would be acting contrary to Sacred Scripture which commands us not to despise, but test prophecy. [1] In that regard, after 33 years, Rome has intervened several times to prevent this alleged apparition site from being shut down, even going so far as to take authority for the authenticity of the apparitions away from the local bishop and into the hands of the Vatican and her commissions, and ultimately the Pope himself. Neither can one ignore, without a certain intellectual dishonesty, the numerous statements from not only cardinals and bishops, but from St. John Paul II himself that were positive, if not outright celebratory of this unofficial Marian shrine (see Medjugorje: Just the Facts Ma’am. Pope Francis has yet to make a public pronouncement, but is known to have allowed the seers of Medjugorje to speak in his jurisdiction while he was a Cardinal.)

While I’ve shared my own experiences of Medjugorje in the past (seeThat Medjugorje) as well as a powerful encounter of Divine Mercy there (see Miracle of Mercy), today I am going to speak to those who want to see Medjugorje shut down and mothballed.

What are you thinking?


UNWANTED FRUITS?

I ask this question with respect, since I know of good and devoted Catholics who nonetheless believe Medjugorje to be a hoax.

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So let me say straight out: my faith is not hinging on whether the Vatican approves or disapproves of Medjugorje. Whatever the Holy Father decides, I will abide by. In fact, neither is my faith based on the approved apparitions of Fatima, or Lourdes, or Guadalupe or any other “prophetic revelation.” My faith and my life is based on Jesus Christ and His infallible, immutable Word as revealed to us through the Apostles and resident today in its fullness in the Catholic Church (but is, in fact, supported by such prophetic revelations). That is the rock of my faith. [2]

But what is the purpose of this faith, brothers and sisters? What is the purpose of this Revelation handed on to us some 2000 years later? It is to make disciples of the nations. It is to save souls from eternal damnation.

For eight years, I have had the often painful task of standing upon the rampart and watching the approaching Storm across a spiritual landscape that is mostly barren and parched. I have gaped into the mouth of evil and its machinations to the point where, only by God’s grace, have I not despaired. Upon this landscape, I have had the privilege of meeting little oases of grace—men and women who, despite the apostasy around them, have remained faithful in their lives, their marriages, their ministries, and apostolates.

And then there is this massive oasis, comparable in size to no other, called Medjugorje. To this singular place alone come millions of pilgrims each year. And from this single place have come thousands upon thousands of conversions, hundreds of documented physical healings, and countless vocations. Everywhere I go, whether it’s in Canada, the U.S., or abroad, I constantly run into people whose

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ministries were conceived in Medjugorje. Some of the most anointed, faithful, and humble priests I know have quietly acknowledged to me that they received their calling in or through Medjugorje. Cardinal Schönborn went as far as to admit that he would lose half his seminarians were it not for Medjugorje. [3]

These are what we call “fruits” in the Church. For Jesus said,

Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten, for a tree is known by its fruit. (Matt 12:23)

And yet, I hear Catholics repeat that, somehow, this Scripture does not apply to Medjugorje. And I am left with my mouth hanging open, silently asking the question: What are you thinking?


DECEPTION?

As an evangelist in the Church for nearly 20 years now, I have prayed and begged the Lord to bring about conversion and repentance wherever He sends me. I have stood in nearly empty churches preaching the Gospel to parishes that are practically on life support. I have walked past their confessionals-turned-broom-closets and stood at the back as mostly white-haired congregations mumble their way through a Liturgy that is apparently no longer relevant to people my age. Indeed, I’m in my forties, and my generation has practically disappeared from nearly every one of the hundreds of parishes I have visited around the world.

…And then I see in Medjugorje line-ups of young and old to the confessional. Over-crowded Masses that happen

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on the hour all day long. Pilgrims climbing mountains barefoot, ascending in tears, often descending in peace and joy. And I ask myself, “My God, isn’t this what we pray for,hope for, long for in our ownparishes?” We are living at a time when heresy has nearly decimated the Church in the West, when errant theology and secularism in many places continues to spread like cancer, and compromise (in the name of “tolerance”) has been held up as a cardinal virtue… And then I listen to people actively campaigning against Medjugorje, and I ask myself again: What are they thinking? What exactly are they looking for if not the very fruits of Medjugorje? “It’s a deception,” they say. Well, sure, we have to wait and see what Rome has to say about it (though after 33 years, it’s clear that the Vatican has been in no hurry). But if it is a deception, all I can say is that I hope the devil comes and starts it in my parish! Let Rome take its time. Let the “deception” continue to spread.

Of course, I’m being a bit facetious. But I believe this is precisely what St. Paul meant when he said, “Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good.” [4]

I’m thinking right now of a friend, the powerful missionary Fr. Don Calloway. As a youth, he fried his brain on drugs. He was led out of Japan literally in chains. He had zero understanding of Catholicism. Then one night, he picked up a book of the messages of Medjugorje. As he read them, something began to change him. He sensed Our Lady’s presence, was physically healed (and physically transformed) and infused with an understanding of Catholic truths at the first Mass he attended. Now, I mention this because I’ve heard the argument that, if Medjugorje is a deception—that if the Vatican rules against it—millions will be dragged into apostasy.

Rubbish.

The most noticeable, most impressive fruit of Medjugorje is how souls have returned to love and grow in faithfulness to their Catholic

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heritage, including a renewed obedience to the Holy Father. Medjugorje, is in fact, an antidote to apostasy. As Fr. Don said, what happened to him happened—but he will adhere to whatever the Vatican decides. There will always be those, of course, who will rebel against the Vatican in such a case. There might be the few who “leave the Church”, right alongside the “traditionalists” and others who have sometimes lacked the humility and trust to stand by the sometimes difficult decisions of the hierarchy that, nonetheless, need to be heeded. In those cases where people genuinely apostasize, however, I would not blame the Church nor Medjugorje, but the formation of that person.

the rest of this article is at:
http://www.markmallett.com/blog/on-medjugorje/#more-15666

 

Two points from the Msgr. Pope article stood out for me:

• That there are many false prophets around today and they can include our shepherds;
  
• That we cannot wholly avoid deception and error apart from Scripture and the teaching of the Church.

I feel this article ties in well with the original video of Fr. Ripperger on discerning.

 

The article above from Mgr Pope that Harper posted is not really about discernment of apparitions but of 'teachers'. The Monsignor is basically highlighting how we can be led away from God in a multitude of ways and discusses some of them.

Fr Ripperger in his video suggests (I think) that we should only follow church approved apparitions. However he and generally all those who say the same thing then come out with rules that should be followed when discerning apparitions. I find that position rather self contradictory. If we should only follow church approved apparitions there is simply no need to know any 'rules' about discerning apparitions.

For me, the Catholic Catechism gives the best guidance on this topic:

Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

The Vatican has published quite a lot about the 'sensus fidelium' (sense of the faithful) recently (2014) but there is an interesting article about it, with a link to the Vatican document at:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...nion-of-the-faithful-say-vatican-theologians/

 

I believe Msgr. Pope properly labeled his article with the word prophet. People who teach false things about God and the faith often claim to have heavenly inspiration, locutions or actual apparitions. (For example, the preacher who tells his followers that Jesus proclaimed the prosperity gospel, and if they just pray in a particular way, they will get rich).

Also, some of those who claim to receive messages from God mix dire predictions of the future with guidelines on how to prepare for it. (These include Charlie Johnston. Charlie has gotten to the point where his blog is more about his thoughts on social issues and politics than heaven. He is now teaching about how government should be set up after the Storm. Last April he posted in detail his thoughts on how to avoid being captured and taken to a FEMA camp. )

These "prophets" are quite different from traditional Catholic mystics who focused on the Eternal and have a strong and simple message; St. Bernadette, St. Faustina, Sr. Lucia of Fatima.