Confusing

Fatima, I can understand why people would be confused and would struggle with the words and even actions of Francis. It is completely different from any other Pope in my lifetime. But, as you correctly point out, he has not changed one Dogma ( he can't) and perhaps through my human weakness I see comments that appear to go beyond just confusion and a seeking of better knowledge. You give me way too much credit as well in my discernment process. I'm far from a theologian or even a well learned Catholic. I only KNOW for sure that Francis was validly elected Supreme Pontiff and therefore I feel compelled to listen to him, to trust him, but not because of him as a person, a man, but because the Holy Spirit led the cardinals to him and because Jesus himself assured us that Francis is now "The Rock" and he has been given the keys to the kingdom and the Church will prevail in the end. For me it's that simple. I am a sinner and I am flawed human being so I would never dare think I would shake the dust from meet at this site. This is a good place, a holy place and it is administered by a devout, holy and a good man. Peace.

 

Some people have implied that they are disturbed that anyone might query things that the Pope has said and to have done so on a forum like this. I don't like some threads because I disagree with the premise on which they have been originated, so I just don't read them. It is an unfortunate fact (but it is a FACT) that the Pope has said many things on many topics that are disturbing a large number of orthodox Catholics. If you are not affected OK, consider yourselves fortunate. But to imply that no-one may voice such concerns here when they are so widely voiced elsewhere is odd.
Anyone who reads Evangelii Gaudium is bound to wonder what the Pope's intentions are as change is clearly signalled and many fear what is in store, including priests.
If you read EG and consider that we can safely ignore the contents because he has not actually changed Church teaching in any basic way yet, then good luck. I don't want to disturb you but I am interested in hearing the opinions of those who see that such changes are clearly envisaged. It is notable that the only bishop in Germany who has been disciplined by Pope Francis was guilty of overspending, those who have given clear notice that they are going to ignore Church teaching have not even been called to Rome for a 'discussion'. This sort of thing is disturbing me and I am sorry if my being disturbed, disturbs you, I can't help it.

 

E.g. this is worrying:

Scripture says: View attachment 1564

The Catechism says that proselytism is:

“The transmission of the Christian faith which consists primarily in proclaiming Jesus Christ in order to lead others to faith in him” (CCC 425).”

Pope Francis says:

“Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us. Sometimes after a meeting I want to arrange another one because new ideas are born and I discover new needs. This is important: to get to know people, listen, expand the circle of ideas.”

 

I can't help but ponder the Pharisee's and Sadducee's in the time of Christ, challenging him on nearly all statements he made, which they could not understand. Or when they thought they understood they were corrected by Jesus. These leaders of the Jewish faith misunderstood him every step of the way. He challenged their human disciplines and traditions, he dined with the sinners, he admonished the Jewish leaders who thought they were above it all and in the end they had him killed. I see the same pattern developing with Pope Francis. I am beginning to wonder if it will be the Catholic hierarchy along with many church 'faithful' that will plot to have Francis killed. It would seem to mirror the dismay of Christ himself.

I would agree that it would be helpful if Francis was crystal clear on his teachings, but he is not. He, like Jesus leaves much mystery in what he say's and writes. Only a few remained faithful to Jesus in the end and it may well be the same for Francis.

 

You think that he is going to be killed like Christ for telling the truth? The world loves this Pope, so far anyway. Obama thinks he's wonderful as well as many other commentators and newspapers whose opinion on previous Popes has been hostile and negative. I need to hear the truth spoken clearly and dogmatically as do many others who are dismayed by the fuzziness to date. The Pope's opinion on clarity seems to be that it is undesirable and that no-one should expect it from him or the Church.

One of my points is that where the Pope does occasionally come close to making himself clear, the implications are not reassuring but frightening. Have you read the exhortation EG?

To believe that the Pope is necessarily the choice of the Holy Spirit is naive as history teaches us - the Borgias were validly elected and such a view discounts the election of John Paul I who reigned for 33 days). Did the guarantee that the Cardinals' choice always coincides with God's choice suddenly appear after the Borgias or after JPI? Why didn't God instruct the Cardinals to elect someone since 1929 who would carry out the consecration of Russia? There have been some who would have done it. God has to do what he can with the choices that men make and in this case, I believe that He has his work cut out.

 

The world loves Pope Francis? Perhaps you did not see the video that Padraig posted on the mob of feminists burning a picture of the pope in Argentina! Love with liberals only lasts as long as you agree with them and they can turn in a heart beat when you don't support their causes. Pope John Paul I, after meeting with Lucia was quoted saying he had every intention of making the consecration to Russia. So if having a pope means he has to do everything that prophecy suggests or he is an invalid pope, then why did JPI die in 33 days? God does not elect a pope to carry out his desires against the free will of the pope. The Holy Spirit chooses a pope to guide the Church faithful to heaven. Yes, they fall short too. They are human. JPII was said to go to weekly confession. This would acknowledge that he believed he was a sinner. Popes, like the faithful must cooperate with grace to carry out their mission. Sometimes they fall short, perhaps because of their own weakness or perhaps the weakness of the faithful lacking in prayer and penance for the pope.

 

Mac, Jesus made the conservative priests and seraphim very uncomfortable and not the sinners. He sat with them, stayed with them and dined with them. All others ridiculed this behavior and did not embrace their fellow sinners as our Lord did. For me the vicar of Christ should be Christlike and this is what I still see from our Pope. Does the pope approve of this behavior? I would say no or rather he approved of their sin as much as Jesus approved of the sins of adulterers, prostitutes or tax collectors, but he did sit with them and love them and approach them when no others would.

 

In Ireland we see proselytism in the negattive. In previous eras of hunger our Catholic forebears were bribed by food to change religion. This kind of proselytism is clearly an evil.

 

There are many places on the internet where Pope Francis is not only questioned, but insulted and even verbally eviscerated daily. How any faithful Catholic could think that Jesus is pleased by such hatefulness just blows me away.I find this extremely disturbing, and I stay away from such places. It's important to remember that Jesus told us that by the measure we judge others, we will be judged.


en·vis·age
enˈvizij/
verb
past tense: envisaged; past participle: envisaged

1. 1.
   contemplate or conceive of as a possibility or a desirable future event.

This gets me as well. Why would faithful Catholics spend their precious time getting worked up about imagined future events? This goes way beyond questioning. This is judging the heart and intentions of Pope Francis, which are unknowable.

 

Mac,

I thought that the Pope has to flee Rome and that the Pope who does this is the true Pope. I do not think he will flee Rome if he is the AntiPope. When that happens I understood that the Cardinals (the bad ones) would take over and be 2The top", and that was what Cardinal Ciappi was talking about, if this makessense.

 

Agreed , the Pope who flees Rome cannot be a false Pope. One thing I never understand on thse prophecies is he will flee to a plce where he is not known.WHERE ON EARTH COULD THAT BE, the congo jungle?

 

Years ago on theradio a DJ went to a conferance of people who were all into conspiracies. They said the Papal Flag had been planted on the moon or mars or somewhere so whoknows it might not be on earth.

 

I have to approach sinners like Jesus did everyday also Andy. In the work place , on the sports field , everywhere.In fact I cant even get away from them.So I DONT need the Popes example on how to meet them and listen to them. I would like the Holy Father to become a little more 'obsessed' with issues like Homo sexuality, Atheism, Abortion.... Peter, feed thy flock

 

HMMMM... intersting conference

 

Pope Francis is smart. He has a degree in theology. He also prays and is close to our Lady. Those who criticise him tend to be conservative or right wing politically. I am afraid some have been infected by a spirit of Phariseeism.

Yes the Pope says some difficult things which challenge us all. But that is a good thing as it forces us to think.

The Pope may have a liberal slant but he is orthodox in his teaching. He has rattled "conservative " Catholics who think they know the faith better than the Pope.

 

Mac, at first I felt the same way. I like the "meat and potatoes" of the faith, but I am finding out I also needed to be shaken up a bit and see that just being dogmatic is not enough for Jesus. We must hear another dimension of the faith. We must change. Change does not mean giving up our dogmatic formation, but we need to open up new windows of God's will for our times. Keep praying for him and you will see that there is much wisdom on what he is teaching us.

 

I think you really nailed it! If we pray and are truly open to the Holy Spirit, He will lead us in these times. If we stubbornly stay where we are, we are in danger of missing the wonderful things God wants to do for us in these times.

Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more. St. Louis de Montfort said that he believed the greatest Saints of all time will rise up in the last days. That means the remnant will have opportunities for spiritual growth, and spiritual assistance, unknown to previous generations. But I believe those opportunities will be lost to those who cling to the past, and close themselves off from following Peter.

 

The Church of Ireland using food to convert people was not proselytism, of course, it was plain bribery to leave the truth and (pretend) to embrace error. The catechism's definition is shown above and is matched by that in my dictionary and does not involve food distribution.

Now let's discuss the point and not get distracted by irrelevancies.
The Pope accused the Church of being 'obsessed' with sexual matters. Cardinal Dolan has publicly queried this saying that the opposite is true and that he, himself, has stayed off the subject (admitting that he maybe shouldn't have done so) and that he did so because of the 'tsunami' of criticism following Humanae Vitae. He was not alone, of course, almost every US and European bishop kept quiet about sexual morality especially about artificial contraception.

So, tell me, What on earth was the Pope talking about? He was, according to a Cardinal, saying the direct opposite of the truth in this case and it is obvious who is correct. I haven't heard a homily on sexual morality for decades except for a recent one where the priest appeared to be supporting same sex 'marriage'.

 

I don't really know how to answer your response Mac other than to say, I feel the Pope is doing what needs to be done for the majority of the world right now and not the true devout faithful. You say you don't need the pope to do that for you but I feel the pope needs to do that for the whole world and not just devout individuals like yourself. I feel the pope is trying very hard to embrace sinners in the times that we are in like never before. How can he embrace them and prepare them for what is to come if he does not open his loving arms first to them. It is not like he can just come out and call all of them terrible sinners then open up his arms and say now please come give me a hug. We are the universal church, the church for everyone. God wants us all to go to heaven so in this world that has turned to sin more than ever before and a world that embraces sin more than ever before, we see a pope with outstretched arms like those of our Lord and our Mother. Again, I am not saying he is changing the church or changing the opinions on what sin is, but he is trying to embrace sinners like never before or really like no one since Jesus himself forgave. Just because he is embracing them with loving arms it is still up to them to come to aknowledge theirs sins and repent. The pope is trying desperately like never before and he needs our prayers and support for I beleive the time of mercy for the world is short and sinners need mercy now more than ever.