CONCERNING OBJECTIONS TO CHURCH'S TEACHING ON RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION BY DIVORCED AND REMARRIED

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by BrianK, Mar 18, 2015.

  1. This is not a website where your views are welcome, solady. I am sorry, but you are sowing great confusion here and that is not from Our Lord and Our Lady.
     
    SOLADY and fallen saint like this.
  2. I haven't been on this forum for very long but a few times folks have gotten on here and just rampaged around and had everything turn upside down. This is one of those times and I think you are an internet troll. Yes, I do. You keep throwing up roadblocks whenever you are confronted. Not good, IMHO. Sorry if I offended.
     
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  3. Carmel333

    Carmel333 Archangels

    I can't help but think we should not be arguing about this. I grew up in the 60s-70s and attended Catholic School and yes watched things change, but we must trust God to feed His people. If the Authority is taken away from the Roman Catholic Church in any way, then what in the world did Jesus mean when He guaranteed that not even hell would prevail against her? I myself wear a veil, and if I happen to be in a church where there are no kneelers (so very sad and upsetting) I kneel on the floor. But we must let all that is ordained happen, and we know from Jesus Himself there would be much confusion in the end, even so much that the most faithful could be deceived. We must stay in the Church, and we must by example and word live and tell the Gospel, even to the Pope if need be. He is also a man with many temptations I'm sure. We must pray for him but stay on the narrow path ourselves. Jesus has told me personally many times to "run to the Eucharist" or " the Eucharist heals" so I know our Mass is valid in these times. God is cleansing His Church right now, and dust is going to fly while He working on it.
     
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  4. You have boiled it down well, Carmel333
     
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  5. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I am sure we will not agree on your views on the validity of the Church under the present and all past popes to Peter. You seem to think the teaching authority has lost its validity in Christ's teachings. When you speak of dogma or dogmatic you use a very limited understanding to draw your premise. Who is your pope now? Are you now aligned with our Protestant brothers and sisters who are a pope unto themselves as they define personally what is to be believed and what is not? I will stick to the successor of Peter and know that I am grounded on the sound foundation that its head, Jesus, said the gates of hell will never prevail against. Even when many with the Church have left the ship, for a million different reasons, I will stay with it through it all even when it gets "very small, but very holy" as Pope Benedict prophecized. You may find a couple souls on MOG that could buy your personal view of the Church, but I think you will find the overwhelming number of people on this forum are well grounded in the unchanging truths and head of the Church Jesus established and they will not bend to unsound rhetoric.

    On the subject of dogma/dogmatic, I will help you better define this word using one of the great theologians of all church history>>>
    Modern Catholic Dictionary http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/ddict.htm
    by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
    DOGMATIC THEOLOGY.
    The science of Christian doctrine. It treats the teachings of the Church systematically as a whole, and considers each article of faith in its own right and in relation to other dogmas of Catholic Christianity. It proves the doctrines of the Church from Scripture and tradition, illustrates them by suitable comparisons, and shows that they are in harmony with reason. It answers objections from philosophy and other sciences and above all deduces theological consequences from the truths of faith.
    DOGMA. Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree.)
    DOGMATIC FACT. A truth that, though not revealed by God, nevertheless comes under the infallible teaching authority of the Church. The reason for the Church's competence over dogmatic facts is their close connection with revealed truths. If the Church did not have authority to teach such facts infallibly, the doctrines of revelation would be jeopardized. Examples of dogmatic facts are the valid election of a pope, the validity of an ecumenical council, and the actuality of a canonized saint's presence in heaven.



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  6. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    SOLADY, Greetings from a fellow Trad :)

    I understand all of the arguments you are putting forth here. When I first returned to the Church a couple of years ago I was confused by everything that was happening so I dove into researching all of this.

    Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it appears that you don’t accept that we have had valid popes for a number of years. Though it is possible for the See of Peter to be vacant for a time, such as in between papal elections, we are assured that we will always have a Pope. Yes there was even a period early in Church history when the Papacy was empty for a period of a few years because the Romans threatened to kill the new Pope if elected. However if there have been no Popes for the last 50 years then there would also be no Cardinals left since the Pope picks the new Cardinals. New Cardinals are needed to elect a new Pope. This would mean that the See of Peter had come to an end. This goes against infallible Church teaching from long before Vatican II.

    Being well versed I am sure you are aware of the infallible decree of the Vatican I council that we will always have a Pope. Here is an excerpt:

    Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

    1. That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time [45] .

    2. For no one can be in doubt, indeed it was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the catholic church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the saviour and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives and presides and exercises judgment in his successors the bishops of the holy Roman see, which he founded and consecrated with his blood [46] .

    3. Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .

    4. For this reason it has always been necessary for every church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body [48] .

    5. Therefore,
      • if anyone says that
        • it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that

        • the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy:
        let him be anathema.
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs
     
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  7. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels

    Praetorian finally! someone who knows what im taking about. I want to respond to your thread (i like what you wrote and how you write) only thing is i work 12 hour days and weekends are my research days. I will respond towards the end of the week thank you. Peace of the Lord be with you.
     
  8. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels

    Praetorian finally! someone who knows what im taking about. I want to respond to your thread (i like what you wrote and how you write) only thing is i work 12 hour days and weekends are my research days. I will respond towards the end of the week thank you. Peace of the Lord be with you.
     
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  9. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels

    No offense taken Josephite, my apologies to you if i did offended you. Please know that I am writing as a soldier for Mary's army! I love Her and She loves Her Son, and they love us all!
    Peace Be with you
    Mathhew 18.3
    Jesus called a little child to stand among them.“Truly I tell you, He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.…
     
  10. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    No problem SOLADY :)
    We live in very confusing times. It is difficult to sort all of these things out.
    I know I still don't have all the answers :)
     
  11. josephite

    josephite Powers


    Thats a great step forward Solady!

    So its a big Thank you to Praetorian for highlighting the infallible decree of Vatican I.

    I knew you would eventually see the truth!

    Praise God

    God Bless and Welcome Home!
     
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  12. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels

    Im not offended HeavenlyHosts truly. I know your sorry. I welcome any form of humiliation because I want to help the souls in purgatory. I am offering this insult (and im not frowning promise) for the poor souls. Thank you for that HeavenlyHosts. You helped me in this and I know the souls will appreciate us very much.

    PS!
    i too will like your response towards me; it gives me a chance to be like saint lawrence!

    In great anger, the Prefect condemned Lawrence to a slow, cruel death. The Saint was tied on top of an iron grill over a slow fire that roasted his flesh little by little, but Lawrence was burning with so much love of God that he almost did not feel the flames. In fact, God gave him so much strength and joy that he even joked. "Turn me over," he said to the judge. "I'm done on this side!" And just before he died, he said, "It's cooked enough now." Then he prayed that the city of Rome might be converted to Jesus and that the Catholic Faith might spread all over the world. After that, he went to receive the martyr's reward. Saint Lawrence's feast day is August 10th.


    Peace of the Lord be with you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  13. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I recieve a peace that the world can not give, each time I visit Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and I am in heaven at Adoration and Benediction. Like yourself Carmel, I could not survive without Holy Communion. I don't know how others cope in the world today without the Blessed Eucharist as it is the source and summit of all that is Good in Our Catholic faith!


    Most Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - I adore thee profoundly.
    I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ,
    Present in all the tabernacles of the world,
    In reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences whereby He is offended.
    And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary,
    I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.


    *St Michael the Archangel knelt down beside the children of Fatima and made them repeat three times as quoted above, both before and after he gave the Sacred Host and Precious Blood of Jesus to them. St Michael said, "Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful people! Make reparation for their crimes and console your God."

    "My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You! I ask pardon of You for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love You."
     
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  14. Light

    Light Guest

    Josephite

    Adoration is truly an awesome gift from God.

    Lovely prayers; I had a different rendition of 2nd one.

    "My God, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love Thee. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, who do not adore, who do not trust and who do not love Thee. O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly and I offer Thee the Most precious body, blood, soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended and by the infinite merits His Most Sacred Heart and the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of You the conversion of poor sinners."

    God Bless
     
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  15. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels

    First Vatican Council defined papal infallibility in 1870. The date on which this doctrine was officially defined is not the date on which it became true. Rather, it was always truth. The Roman Catholic Church sees its Pope as the head and as its Pontiff, the successor to Peter, and that his office is never-changing, and immutable.
    It becomes clear beyond any reasonable doubt what the Church of Rome is telling us- we are specifically being told that this office, the Bishop of Rome, is truly intended for the Roman Catholic Church. The word catholic literally means “universal.” Thus outside the church there is no salvation.

    Bull Cantate Domino, 1441
    “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra (Emphasis added) Dogmas cannot be discarded like disciplines.

    The order established by God – the Roman Catholic Church is the unique divine institution given to us for the salvation of mankind. Sacred Scripture provides explicit detail on how Christ wanted His popes to act and promised His protection. "The Holy Ghost will teach you all things" John 14:26);
    "Going therefore, teach ye all nations" Matt. 28:19);"I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt. 28:20).

    The Roman Catholic Church decrees that the Pontiff is the final and absolute authority within all of Christendom, the office granted individually to Peter, the first among the 12 apostles is permanent and is to be transmitted to his successors and that his role was forever instituted when: Jesus set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him as it is founded upon a rock:
    When a pope speaks Ex cathedra, that is, in his official capacity as head of the church, he is said to speak with divine authority equal to that of God in Scripture.


    ON THE PERMANENCE OF THE PRIMACY OF BLESSED PETER IN THE ROMAN PONTIFFS:

    Vatican Council Fourth Session - Chapter 2

    That which our lord Jesus Christ, the prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ's authority, in the church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time.

    We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

    This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. This doctrine has been the consistent teaching of the Popes throughout the centuries.


    As such, it would certainly appear that John Paul II wanted to challenge what has been already been decreed . His earnest desire to renew the church to a visible unity through ecumenism (a blending of all faiths) consider the following from the Second Vatican Council held by the Church of Rome in the 1999. (unbelievable!)

    IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
    UT UNUM SINT

    On commitment to Ecumenism

    79. It is already possible to identify the areas in need of fuller study before a true consensus of faith can be achieved: 1) the relationship between Sacred Scripture, as the highest authority in matters of faith, and Sacred Tradition, as indispensable to the interpretation of the Word of God; 2) the Eucharist, as the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Christ, an offering of praise to the Father, the sacrificial memorial and Real Presence of Christ and the sanctifying outpouring of the Holy Spirit; 3) Ordination, as a Sacrament, to the threefold ministry of the episcopate, presbyterate and diaconate; 4) the Magisterium of the Church, entrusted to the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him, understood as a responsibility and an authority exercised in the name of Christ for teaching and safeguarding the faith; 5) the Virgin Mary, as Mother of God and Icon of the Church, the spiritual Mother who intercedes for Christ's disciples and for all humanity.


    76 Cf. COMMISSION ON FAITH AND ORDER OF THE WORLD COUNCIL OF CHURCHES, Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry (January 1982).

    79 SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL, Decree On Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, 4.

    Tapestry with churches of various traditions and regions, and the prayer of Jesus “that all may be one” as far as the WCC Unity. (Heaven help us!) Is this what Vatican II proposes? I say run!


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    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  16. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    SOLADY,

    I agree with you about papal infallibility always existing and just being recognized when it was “declared”. This goes for any other “truth” as well. When something is officially declared infallibly, the Church is just legitimately recognizing what has always been true.

    It looks here like you have a problem with the Church’s ecumenical stance. :) This is not uncommon with trads (and a lot of other people also). The SSPX has a problem with it as well. If I am correct, according to the negotiations between Rome and the SSPX, Vatican II’s teachings on ecumenism were not declared infallibly. It was something purely pastoral the council came up with. In fact if the problems you have with Vatican II are basically the same ones the SSPX has, then there is nothing officially taught in it that is binding that wasn’t taught before.

    We live in an era of confusion in the Church. Stick to what has always been taught and you will be fine. Just be careful not to separate from the Church. That is where the devil will try to get traditionalists. He will try to convince them to deny the papacy and separate. Never separate from Peter. Sadly I think we are just at the beginning of all of the problems. Hold fast to what has always been taught, cling to Our Lady, Her Scapular and Rosary and stay in the Church :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  17. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels


    That's why we have to go back to the true teachings of the church! we will help our families, the people, the priests of our communities by doing so.
    The problem where the popes are steadfastly refusing to exercise the authority that they rightfully have and that has been exercised in the past since apostolic times is part of the present crisis in the Catholic Church today. The popes are steadfastly refusing to exercise the authority that they rightfully have that has been exercised in the past since apostolic times. There can be no compromises on doctrine nor on the integrity of the Catholic Faith.


    I have clung to the true teachings of the church that is why i do not participate in the new mass stuff; just for the sake of "social belonging". My faith is more deeper than that. I do not belong to SSPX ether. I believe in Apostolic Succession something that has not been seen since Pope Pius Xll, the last traditional pope.

    “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their alms givings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his alms-giving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) Ex cathedra (Emphasis added)
     
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I agree with what you said SOLADY about the Popes giving up their authority. This is a great shame and a big part of the crisis in the Church now. I do know though that we have had valid Popes since Pius XII. We can know this is true because of the infallible statement I linked to Vatican I.

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum20.htm#Chapter 2. On the permanence of the primacy of blessed Peter in the Roman pontiffs

    You do not have to agree with everything a Pope does to acknowledge he is rightfully Pope. Please at least reconsider your position on this for the good of your soul.

    You are right that we should cling to Tradition during these times of confusion in the Church. That is what I do as well. Really there is no other option. Modernism is condemned. It is the sewer of all heresies.

    May Our Lady guide you in this. :)
     
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  19. SOLADY

    SOLADY Angels


    thank you praetorian for sticking by me in this quest of mine, you are truly a soldier on this spiritual battlefield and i promise to look up that link
    and respond by next weekend, as i mentioned last week my research times are limited to weekends due to heavy workweek, and my weekend is coming to a close. i leave you with this for now;
    King David said to God: “With someone loyal you will act in loyalty.” 2 samuel 22:26

    peace of the Lord be with you always
     
  20. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Thank you SOLADY. :)
    I returned to the Church 2 years ago and my path was very similar to where you are at now.
    I wasn't sure what was going on, but I recognized immediately (through the Grace given me by Our Lady) that I needed to cling to what the Church had always taught.
    Thank you for the quote as well :)
    May Our Lady guide you in your journey.
     
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