Challenge: ‘If the Turin Shroud is a forgery, show how it was done’

Discussion in 'The mystical and Paranormal' started by BrianK, Apr 19, 2022.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/17/the-1m-challenge-if-the-turin-shroud-is-a-forgery-show-how-it-was-done

    The $1m challenge: ‘If the Turin Shroud is a forgery, show how it was done’
    Expert on revered relic calls on British Museum to back up the results of its disputed carbon dating tests
    Joanna Moorhead
    [​IMG]
    It was one of the most eagerly awaited scientific announcements of all time, and it pitted the world of faith against the world of rational thought, under the glare of the media. So when cutting-edge carbon-14 tests found that the Shroud of Turin was a forgery, it seemed like the final chapter for a relic that had been revered for centuries as the cloth in which Christ’s body had been wrapped when he supposedly rose from the dead at the first Easter almost 2,000 years ago.

    But one man – David Rolfe, a film-maker whose documentary The Silent Witness had brought the shroud into the public eye in modern times, and who had converted to Christianity as a result of his research – wasn’t prepared to give up on it. He was convinced the carbon dating, carried out in 1988 under the direction of the British Museum and Oxford University, had been flawed. And now he claims he has the evidence to prove it. This week sees the release of a new film,Who Can He Be?, in which Rolfe argues that, far from the shroud being a definite dud, new discoveries in the past few years have again opened the question of its authenticity.


    So convinced is Rolfe that he’s issuing a challenge worth $1m to the British Museum. “If … they believe the shroud is a medieval forgery, I call on them to repeat the exercise, and create something similar today,” he says. “Because from all the evidence I’ve seen, if this is a forgery it’s the most ingenious forgery in history – and of course it dates back almost 2,000 years, to a time of far less sophisticated forgery techniques.

    “They said it was knocked up by a medieval conman, and I say: well, if he could do it, you must be able to do it as well. And if you can, there’s a $1m donation for your funds.”

    According to the gospel accounts, it was when they discovered Christ’s burial cloth on the floor of his tomb that his followers first believed he had risen from the dead. Across the centuries, the shroud has been venerated as that very piece of fabric.

    Rolfe became aware of it about 45 years ago, after he put out a request for ideas for documentaries, and the writer Ian Wilson, who had investigated the shroud – by then being kept at Turin Cathedral – got in touch. Rolfe was not a believer, but he found the history of the shroud fascinating. The documentary he went on to make won a Bafta in 1978, and brought the relic to international attention.

    “My programme at no point said it was authentic, but it did pose questions, such as how did the image of the crucified man get on to the cloth, and did its provenance fit with the timeline of Christ,” says Rolfe.

    The most powerful moment for him came when he took photographs of the four-metre-long shroud for the first time, and saw that the image of the dead man’s face was much more pronounced in the negatives. “It was almost as though it had been created for the photographic age,” says Rolfe.

    In the mid-1980s the Vatican, the owner of the shroud, agreed in principle that it could be dated using the latest technology, and entrusted the British Museum with the task. A few years later, the verdict made headlines around the world: the cloth dated from the 13th or 14th century, and could not possibly be authentic. It seemed the relic had had its day.

    [​IMG]
    Pope Francis with the shroud in 2015. Photograph: Alberto Pizzoli/AFP/Getty Images
    But Rolfe, who is now in his early 70s, was determined to debunk the debunking. “Five [testing] protocols were agreed on, but they were all abandoned,” he says. In the glare of world publicity, the tests became a political hot potato for the British Museum. The sample used for the tests, Rolfe argues in his new film, was too small and taken from a corner where the shroud was likely to have been repaired over the centuries.

    Many would argue that, even if the shroud could be proved to be the burial cloth of the man named Jesus who was crucified 2,000 years ago, that doesn’t amount to proof of his resurrection, the central tenet of Christian belief. “The carbon dating could show it was definitely from the time of Christ, but it’s still a stretch to go from that to seeing it as proof that he rose from the dead,” says Richy Thompson of Humanists UK. “Some people believe that, yes, Jesus was a real person, and we know crucifixion was a thing in those times, and Pontius Pilate is a well-documented historical figure.

    “What many non-religious people would say is, where is the evidence? Because if you’re going to make extraordinary claims, you need strong evidence to back it up. And the fact that people believe [in the resurrection] is not in itself evidence that it actually happened.”

    Rolfe is unperturbed: he says the image on the cloth seems to have come from a massive burst of radiation, emitted in a fraction of a second.

    When it comes to the carbon dating, he’s certainly not alone in his scepticism. Barrie M Schwortz, a photographer who documented the shroud in 1978, says “murky” would be a good word to describe the events of 1988.

    “Today there are at least six peer-reviewed scientific articles that challenge the results of the carbon dating,” he says. In his view, the players involved were in a hurry to get the job done, because they wanted to get carbon dating on the map. “Those tests made it a household name, and today it’s used widely in archaeology,” he says. “I’m Jewish, so I don’t have a horse in this race, but I’ve come to believe it’s the authentic burial cloth because I’ve looked at the science.”

    The British Museum is less willing to get involved this time around. “Any current questions about the shroud would be best put to those who currently care for it in the royal chapel of the cathedral of Turin,” a spokesperson said.

    … we have a small favour to ask. Tens of millions have placed their trust in the Guardian’s fearless journalism since we started publishing 200 years ago, turning to us in moments of crisis, uncertainty, solidarity and hope. More than 1.5 million supporters, from 180 countries, now power us financially – keeping us open to all, and fiercely independent.

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    Sent from my iPhone
     
  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Katfalls studied the Shroud for years and has written about it. She is an expert.
     
  3. padraig

    padraig Powers

    There was a problem with the then carbon dating. The samples were taken from the edge of the Shroud to protect it from harm and these areas were probably subject to repair in later centuries.

    I hope the Vatican will permit carbon dating from central areas. But that is up to them.

    I love the Turin Shroud. But my Faith is not founded on a relic.
     
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  4. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Padraig, I do remember reading at one time that fragments of organic material such as plants were found on the Shroud. They were from the Holy Land area and dated back to Christ’s time. I don’t have any idea where I read that.
     
    Sam, DeGaulle, padraig and 1 other person like this.
  5. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    True, Faith is not founded on a relic. That is the beauty and mystery of faith. And a great gift. Miracles are also gifts. Our God loves to gives us gifts and surprises, they are signs of the Holy Spirit. The shroud is a great gift to be used for meditation, just as the Divine Mercy image, and Our Lady of Guadalupe. There are so many miracles around us we cannot count them. We are blessed to have them.
     
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  6. padraig

    padraig Powers

    theoghaewrekemykeyboaragain
     
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  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    THEDOGHAVEWREKEDMYKEYBOARDAGAIN
     
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  8. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    Maybe you need a cat to guard your keyboard
     
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  9. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Great idea
     
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  10. padraig

    padraig Powers

    WOFFWOFF:):)
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Bye bye kitty cat
     
    Jo M likes this.
  12. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    All Caps lock usually means the poster is angry and yelling. I’m not sure what the lack of the space bar means. Regardless it sounds like your dogs are really upset with you. Might be an anger issue or early puppy trauma. 98E82489-1716-4425-83FF-5CE8551B1333.jpeg
     
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  13. Katfalls

    Katfalls Powers

    Ha Ha I could see that coming . . .
     
    Jo M likes this.
  14. Muzhik

    Muzhik Powers

    True. And the single most important consideration is that there is no "scientific test" for Jesus. You can take a strip of litmus paper and show that a colorless liquid is either a base or an acid; but there is no similar test for Jesus. So we have to rely on circumstantial evidence. And if circumstantial evidence is enough to convict a person of murder, it should be enough to use it to provide evidence, if not proof, of the Resurrection.

    (BTW, I have a hardbound copy of "Report on the Shroud of Turin" which is a book that details how the 3-D elements of the Shroud were discovered; how STURP [Shroud of TUrin Research Project] was formed, how the researchers organized and got permission to test the Shroud in the early 70's, and the details of the results of those tests. The book is now out-of-print; however, it is available for free in PDF format on the Internet. I bring this up because the research group organized by the BM vowed to ignore all of the previous research in order to come up with conclusions that were not influenced by previous investigators. Sounds good in theory; lousy in practice. If they HAD looked at the photographic evidence gathered by STURP, they would have found a photo of the Shroud taken under colored light, which clearly shows the Shroud exclusively in red EXCEPT FOR AN ANGLED PIECE RUNNING ALONG ONE SHORT END THAT SHOWED UP AS BLUE. This clearly showed the material there was different from the rest of the Shroud.

    Guess which area they used to get their samples for testing.)​

    Pollens have been found on the Shroud that showed it had been in the eastern Mediterranean region, and specifically in the area now in the State of Israel. Other pollens have marked it as having spent time in Constantinople, before finishing its travels in France.

    Photomicrographs of the area mentioned above show that those threads are not part of the original linen weave, but were reconstructed from cotton threads using a technique called "French re-weaving". This was probably done to repair the Shroud after it was damaged by fire during the Middle Ages.

    CARBON DATING CANNOT BE USED ON THE SHROUD! A couple of decades back, the cask used to hold the Shroud was showing its age, so the owners arranged to have it cleaned up. Part of that process involved painting the inside with a wood preservative. The manufacturer swore that this preservative would not contaminate anything held in the cask. They either lied or were criminally incompetent. By the time it was discovered that the preservative would "outgas" over time, enough of the preservative had outgassed to the point that the Shroud is hopelessly contaminated, and no further carbon dating would give accurate results.

    Perhaps the best evidence so far is that science has advanced enough that you do not HAVE to do carbon dating (which destroys the sample by burning it to get the carbon for dating) to get an accurate date for fabric and other materials. I'm too lazy to look up the details now, but IIRC it involves bombarding the materials with gamma rays (?) and measuring what gets bounced back. The amount of reflected radiation is related to the age of the sample. Tests on the Shroud gave it a date range where the time of the Crucifixion is smack-dab in the middle of the date range.

    Check out https://www.shroud.com/ for more info.
     
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  15. padraig

    padraig Powers

    That is true.

    I seem to recall that when they buried Jesus they covered him with ointments. I don't think they show up on the Shroud as stains? Perhaps when He rose it burnt them off.

    I was reading something of what St Augustine wrote regarding the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. He wrote that Jesus left us so that He might live in our hearts. I suppose I felt Jesus in my heart as the dearest of friends, someone I know better than myself since I was a baby. So, as with most Catholics, I look at the reconstructed faces scientists bring us from the Tomb to see if I can see the Face of the Friend who lives in my Heart.

    To see that Holy Face.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Years and years ago , when the Carbon dating came in 'Proved', that the Turin Shroud was a fake I stopped believing at once. I was disappointed, of course, but the evidence seemed rock solid. But there was an old Dominican Priest, a friend of the family , very learned and holy and when I spoke to him about this he was still full of Faith in it. This give me pause and I went back and looked at the evidence and it started to rekindle belief. I do fully believe in it now. One of the things that convinces me is the , 'Sensus Fidelium', the opinion of the Faithful. The Catholic People themselves believe in it. This is always a great Sign of authenticity, but there are mountains of other evidence.

    However it never does any harm to question. We used to have a Relic in the Monastery which the monks believed was of the True Cross. I asked an old Hermit, very saintly man, what evidence there was it really came from the True Cross? He was horrified that I should ask such a question so I stopped asking. :)

    People have many differing roads to Faith. My own tends to be experiental. I believe most of all because Jesus lives in my heart. He is my friend. Relics are nice, don't get me wrong, but I could pretty well get by without them. Or all the tomes of Theology and Philosophy in all the Libraries in the whole World. The Christ I meet, I meet in prayer.

    There is one Relic which strikes me as very similar to the Turin Shroud and was believed in by numerous saints.

    The Veil of Manupello. (Veronica's Veil)

    Padre Pio had a huge Devotion to this. I believe he even bilocated to see it on several occasions.

    [​IMG]

    Veil of Veronica: Miraculous Relic Rediscovered? (liveabout.com)

     
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  17. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    https://www.ncregister.com/interview/new-scientific-technique-dates-shroud-of-turin-to-around-the-time-of-christ-s-death-and-resurrection

    New Scientific Technique Dates Shroud of Turin to Around the Time of Christ’s Death and Resurrection
    Italian scientist Liberato De Caro discusses his peer-reviewed findings, based on an X-ray method of research, used to determine the age of the shroud’s fibers.
    Edward PentinApril 19, 2022
    [​IMG]
    Close-up of the face on the Shroud of Turin. (photo: Shutterstock)
    An Italian scientist is claiming a new technique using X-ray dating shows the Holy Shroud of Turin to be much older than some scientists have stated, and that it does in fact coincide with Christian tradition by dating back to around the time of Christ’s death and resurrection.

    Working with a team of other researchers, Liberato De Caro of Italy’s Institute of Crystallography of the National Research Council in Bari used a “Wide-Angle X-ray Scattering” method to examine the natural aging of cellulose that constitutes a sample of the famous linen cloth.

    They concluded that their peer reviewed research shows the Holy Shroud is compatible with the hypothesis that it is much older than seven centuries old — the conclusion reached in 1988 using carbon dating techniques — and is around 2,000 years old.

    In this April 13 email interview with the Register, De Caro, who has been investigating the Holy Shroud for 30 years, explains more about the discovery, why he believes the X-Ray technique is superior to carbon dating for determining the age of fabric fibers, and discusses other recent discoveries that also point to the Holy Shroud’s authenticity.

    [​IMG]
    Dr. De Caro, please could you share with us in layman’s terms your findings regarding the Holy Shroud of Turin?

    The Shroud of Turin is the most important relic of Christianity. According to Christian tradition, it is the burial shroud that would have wrapped the body of Jesus after his crucifixion.

    For about 30 years, I have been using investigative techniques on the scale of atoms, in particular through X-rays, and three years ago we developed a new method for dating samples taken from linen fabrics. A macroscopic example of a fabric microfiber is like that of a bundle of spaghetti: at first they all have the same length, but if you subject the bundle to accidental shocks, the more the shocks increase, the more the spaghetti breaks. As the number of shocks increases, always of the same intensity, the average length of the spaghetti decreases over time, until it reaches a minimum length.

    A similar thing happens to the polymer chains of cellulose which, like spaghetti but with a section on the scale of a billionth of a meter, gradually break over the centuries due to the combined effect of temperature, humidity, light and the action of chemical agents in the environment in which they are found. Natural aging depends only on ambient temperature and relative humidity. We have therefore developed a method to measure the natural aging of flax cellulose using X-rays and then convert it into time elapsed since fabrication. The new dating method, based on a technique called Wide Angle X-ray Scattering, was first tested on linen samples already dated using other techniques, on samples that had nothing to do with the Shroud, and then applied to a sample taken from the Shroud of Turin.

    Read the rest at the link
     
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  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Iwilllookforwartoeeingthehroudoneday
     
  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

    alotheholyhoueofloreto
     
  20. Dusica

    Dusica Archangels

    Last week I bought a small book named "Stations of the Cross according to the visions of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich". We followed it when we made the stations with my family on Good Friday and it was really enriching to the whole experience.

    I have to add that this whole Easter I was very spiritually filled, more than ever in my life. I felt this peace and awe of Our Lord I really forgot to think of the war that is happening in our neighbour's country. And during the Saturday's liturgy I was filled with joy and didn't want it to stop, while other years before the pandemic I thought that it is too long... Thank you Lord that it was possible to attend the liturgy in person after 2 years and that you let me understand it's mysteries more deeper. I hope you all felt it this easter too :)

    But what I wanted to say is that the book had an interesting additional commentary taken from Emmerich's vision regarding the last station when Jesus is laid in the tomb.
    It was about a miraculous scene after Our Lord's body was anointed, balmed and wrapped in burial cloths. This scene may describe the creation of the image on the shroud. I was able to find that part of the vision here: https://www.ecatholic2000.com/anne/passion66.shtml

    "The Blessed Virgin, the holy women, the men-all were kneeling round the body of Jesus to take their farewell of it, when a most touching miracle took place before them. The sacred body of Jesus, with all its wounds, appeared imprinted upon the cloth which covered it, as though he had been pleased to reward their care and their love, and leave them a portrait of himself through all the veils with which he was enwrapped. With tears they embraced the adorable body, and then reverently kissed the wonderful impression which it had left. Their astonishment increased when, on lifting up the sheet, they saw that all the bands which surrounded the body had remained white as before, and that the upper cloth alone had been marked in this wonderful manner. It was not a mark made by the bleeding wounds, since the whole body was wrapped up and covered with sweet spices, but it was a supernatural portrait, bearing testimony to the divine creative power ever abiding in the body of Jesus. I have seen many things relative to the subsequent history of this piece of linen, but I could not describe them coherently. After the resurrection it remained in the possession of the friends of Jesus, but fell twice into the hands of the Jews, and later was honoured in several different places. I have seen it in a city of Asia, in the possession of some Christians who were not Catholics. I have forgotten the name of the town, which is situated in a province near the country of the Three Kings."

    I thought that, according to the research it formed during the resurrection but this would imply it was formed shortly before sealing the tomb... or maybe all that were present during the burial were permitted to see the image that will be formed during the resurrection...
    Of course It doesn't really matter when or how It was formed, but I found this interesting and wanted to share. :)
     
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