But at least if ordinary decent Catholics would speak out when they can it would be good. But is anyone listening? we would be called bigots, pharisees, judgemental and so on...
Not at all Mac. In fact I have just read your link to Remnant. As I read it I thought of a saying when someone in Ireland dies. They say "Sorry for your troubles" The person saying it has not done anything wrong and they are not seeking forgiveness as such but perhaps they are saying sorry because they knew of the pain the death had caused. The dead person had to go through it. Any request that Jesus made for forgiveness was not for something done wrong but for something that could not be avoided. The request was for forebearance rather than forgiveness. That is what I believe the pope meant when he voiced the imagined request for forgiveness. This request, if made, was an acknowledgment and appreciation of the pain that Mary had willingly and knowingly borne for the sake of His kingdom. Sometimes we can all choose better words. God bless you for defending Jesus but a little mercy for the pope. Remnant is really scathing isnt it?
still getting it wrong mac: i should have pressed the reply button to quote you but you can see my reply above
But particulary now, I think , Viv. A boat sink at any time of course. But it is most aptto sink during a great storm. Weare in a very,very, very great storm. Psalm 71:1 In You, O Lord, I Take Refuge 1In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed. 2In Your righteousness deliver me and rescue me; Incline Your ear to me and save me.…
The Pope has just made it harder for faithful Catholics to hold the line on the issue of homosexuality. In fact by holding the line we are in a very small minority not only in the secular world but also inside the Church. As I have posted before the use of the word 'gay' is objectionable to the Catholic as this refers to the practising homosexual living a fictitious lie. Gay is a social construct, and a lie about the human person. One who identifies as gay can never be a saint. God made no one gay. Those who have homosexual inclinations and through the grace of God live chaste and holy lives can become saints. I think the Catechism is brilliant on this issue and it is worth reading and reflecting on. Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Of course that is what we will be called. That I think is the least form of martyrdom to which we can aspire. Of course someone may cut our heads off for speaking like that but that is the risk we take. Just like all who died for the faith of our fathers. It does not matter if nobody listens. God listens.
'. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,' True, the cathechism is right on this, but perhaps this is something esle we should be, 'Apolgising ' for I think it will not be long before the chathchism wlil be getting an update that will be dumping this whole section. it is grave depravity. Scripture is right. Wed on;t need to apoligise for saying so.
But does the Vatican? I think not. Not anymore. I grow more and more uneasy with the thought that it is the gentleman in the Vatican who wil be the very first to amputate our poor heads. Leading the charge in fact. The words , 'grave depravity', in the present cathechism ' would be very,very unwelcome, I suspect.
A friend of mine once had a close encounter of the third kind with homosexuality out of curiosity. He assured me there was nothing gay about the experience. Excruciatingly painful was the description he used. He did not experiment further. By the way I am 100% heterosexual and proud of it.
But I am not going to waste much more time on this. I just wonder what the Holy Father is going to say on his next airplane flight. Oh well. upwards and onwards.
To be honest most of the few homosexuals I have met in my life have been priests and monks. I think this says something in itself about our current situation and what is to come.
now that would be a shock - going for an audience with the pope and he tells the swiss guard to chop your head off
Last request on this Mac. Would you care to comment on the explanation I gave of the popes suggestion of forgiveness/forebearance 12 or 13 comments ago. I have given your comments thoughtful and fairly lengthy consideration. I would like to hear your thoughts even if they constitute a rebuttal. Am I right in my perception that Pope Francis does not have great fans in you and Padraig? Just as well the pope is not aware of this - he might have your head. This forum is fun and stimulating.
I agree, and I see the storm gathering force on all sides. It is as if we are in the eye of the storm getting sucked closer to the churning spinning inner walls of water. Of course water is not only a symbol of life. It is also a symbol of death. Will we cross from the inner wall to the outer and on to peace and freedom of the open sea? God knows. The time to find sure footing and a secure hold in the barque is upon us now and there is no escaping the Tribulation to come. Only endurance awaits. To hold on for grim death or great life. Sometimes I still try to make light of things but I do not shy from telling others what terror lies in our immediate future and the telling is much to my cost in terms of friendship, family, health, money and business. I assure them of my help when the terror hits them. I only hope I can live up to my word. May God give us courage and steadfastness that we can help others through it and if we do not survive may God have mercy on our souls. I think of Jesus walking on the raging waters and commanding them to be still. We just have to keep faith in Him lest we sink beneath the waves as Peter did. How he must have spluttered and splashed and choked in his panic. But the hand of the Lord was never far away. Edit The thought has come to me that only if Jesus leaves the barque should we do the same and follow Him into the raging sea. We will still be his Church, Jesus will still be the owner and only the Peter appointed by Him will still be our captain. And thus the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her. China gives us a fine example of this where one false church is led by the state and the one true church is underground, hounded and hunted but alive in God.
I cant speak for Padraig. But I think anyone who prays for the Pope and fights error, are the best friends Pope Francis could ever wish for. Have you really given my comment lenghty consideration? Lets recap... I said...If I remember rightly , Pope Francis suggested the young Jesus sought forgiveness from his parents in one of his ramblings? You have turned this truth into ...That has really disturbed me, Mac. Your suggestion that the pope said Jesus sinned. Can you tell me where and when he did this. I will try to find it myself but if you have the source it will save me time. Thanks Do you see what you have done?
No, p4p, homosexuality is not wrong. I quote from the Catechism which garabandal has also quoted: 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. Many of the comments in this thread are arguing against this clear teaching from the Catechism. Pope Francis in his new press conference is simply repeating Church teaching: He said, "the problem is when a person in that situation is good willed and seeks God. Who are we to judge? We must offer good guidance, following what he catechism says." One of the big problems with this matter is the confusion of understanding of the terms being used. I will quote from garabandal's post: As I have posted before the use of the word 'gay' is objectionable to the Catholic as this refers to the practising homosexual living a fictitious lie. Gay is a social construct, and a lie about the human person. One who identifies as gay can never be a saint. God made no one gay. Those who have homosexual inclinations and through the grace of God live chaste and holy lives can become saints. So garabandal is viewiing someone who calls himself 'gay' as a practicing homosexual. Fair enough but not everyone means that who speaks about 'gays'. Similarly, the term homosexual is often understood to refer to a practicing homosexual. When Pope Francis speaks about homosexuals he is most definitely referring to the Catechism definition, namely men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies. Once again, the Pope has spoken clearly and soundly, yet he is not listened to.
We are in a time, Padraig, where evil is seen as good, and good is seen as evil. The best we can do as Christians, is to pray, for all of our brothers and sisters, that they too receive graces to make it into heaven.
I have no doubt, Viv, that I and people like me are very muhc the minoirty and a small minority in the Church, as least in the West. The large majority of Catholics would like to see married priests, women priests, Bishops, Cardinals and Popes. They would like to see the ban on artificial birth ocntrol removed, they would like homosexual and transgender depravity removed, adultery and divorce accepted and an all singing all dancing with it liturgy and so on and would agree with the Holy Father that I am a bigot , a Pharisee an old Irish Dinosaur. A religious fanatic. However the problem is that it is the dinasaurs like me who go to Church every day and pay for things like the Popescraxy plane rides,while the people who adore the Holy Father would not go to Church if it was on fire to put it out. Never have never will. The holy Father can modernise as much as he likes these folks will flock out the Church doors even more quickly than they already have. So we have the curious situation were the apostates who would not ever be caught dead in a Church applaud the Holy Father while the dinosaurs like me who do go to Church are insulted and abused by the Holy Father almost every time he gets in a plane. However I am getting used to the abuse and the crazy online statements. I will keep on coming to Church every day and he will keep on getting on to planes and kiskcng me and the likes of me right in teeth as hard as ever he can. This old dinosaur is staying loyal to the Church whilst those who most support the Holy Father would mostly not be caught dead in one. So it goes.
