Yes a good atheist is ten times better than a lukewarm Catholic and a thousand times better than a bad priest.
The second paragraph in the Denison Forum leads one to Catholic Online and it explains his arguement much more clearly.
This "atheists can go to heaven" stuff is very insightfull. Listen, even some on this forum bought the bait. This is what our Lady has been saying....many, even the elect will fall. We had better know our faith, or it will be taken from us. This is an opportunity for all of us to study the mind of the Church and salvation. After death comes judgement. If one dies and atheist there is no way for salvation. One must be a believer prior to your last heart beat.
When we stand before the Almighty,..there will be no excuses for the reader of hearts. Christ gave His life for the Church, and it is through the sacraments received in a state of grace and through a firm purpose of amendment we have the chance to enter into heaven. Athiests may get into heaven, but it is like you say Fatima they must believe first and then repent or despair like Judas and be lost. It's to bad Pope Francis remarks has caused so much confusion. May Our Lady through the rosary, keep us from error.
Pilate asked Christ, "truth, what is the truth . If you were a catholic before Vatican 2, the church taught (according to traditionalists 3 times infallibly), that ONLY catholics could enter heaven. I am not saying I believe this but , this is the problem the church has with its traditional (St Pius 10,etc. ) wing.
The problem with theology is that it is often nuanced. Do I believe that bank robbers can get into heaven? No unless they convert. Do I believe that unjust buisness men can get into heaven ? No unless they convert Do I believe that liars cn get into heaven? No unless they convert. Do I believe that atheists can get into heaven? No. Unless they convert. But then coudl you say that inheaven there will be bank robbers, liars and rapists. Well...no because they will have converted and certainly no atheist because they will have converted too. It's a matter of how you put things. Padre Pio used to say that on the point of death we actually get to see God for who HE really is and get to make the final choice. So an atheist could be on his/her death bed and in the final moments convert. So to all intents and purposes while to us it looks like he is going down the chute to hell he/she winds up in heaven. This gives hope ; ther eis always hope. Yet I recall when I wrote this on Ron Conte's forum he kicked me off for being a heretic. But its just a matter of nuance really the same as what the Holy Father said, open to misinterpretation. I too remember in religion classes as a child that Protestants for instance could not get into heaven. Pere Lamy the great Frecnh mystic priest said one time at a town called GRay in France in the woods he saw Our Lady leading a procession of the recent dead fro the town processing ebhind Our Blessed Lady in order of holiness. He said he was amzed at some fo the faces he saw there as he was sure they would have been sent to hell. He also said he was amazed at some of the folks leading the procession as they sekdomdarkened a Church door. I guess God is full of surprises and I am glad of that, that way He never gets boring. I feel sorry for atheists in todays world for Faith isn't easy and many of we Catholics don't help matters.
Padraig, I agree with your analysis and I believe Pope Francis would too. I believe this was part of the catholic theology that Vatican 2 was trying to expound upon .
There are so many mysteries Paul...one of them being the mystery of how any of us ever wind up in heaven; the mystery of God's love and goodness and mercy.
Excellent commentary by Dr. Taylor Marshall: Pope Francis recently said, “The Church is a love story, not an institution." Does that make you feel uncomfortable? I feel a little uncomfortable when I read that, because I'm sold on the idea of the Church as a visible "institution." However, as I chewed on this quote from the Holy Father I began to seem the wisdom in it. Of course, we sometimes speak of the "institutional Church," but we should remember that this is not the language of Scripture or the Tradition. Instead, the Catholic Church tends to focus on images of relationships in order to describe the Church: Bride of Christ, Rev. 19:7, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” Body of Christ, Ephesians 5:22-23, "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body." Daughter of Zion, John 12:15, "Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your King is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.” Flock of God, 1 Peter 5:2, "Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness." Household/Family/People of God, in Ephesians 2:19, "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household," People of God, 1 Peter 2:10, "for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." In Scripture, the Church is often depicted in terms of relationships. Bride, children, family, daughter, and so on. For me, this is a great reminder about the chief identity of the Catholic Church. Relations are based on love and the Church is the 2,000 year story of that love story. At the end of the day, we are not saved by faith alone, but by love. St John Of The Cross once wrote, "In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone." So the Church is chiefly a love story between God and His redeemed. If broken sinful people can see the Church in that light, then they will flock to her. If she is a cold institution with hoops to jump through and unclear rules, people will have a cold attitude toward her.
Well it does take more faith as an atheist to believe all the we experience in life came from nothing rather then to believe an Almightly loving God made it all
The Church never taught that ONLY Catholics could go to heaven. It did teach and still teaches that there is "no salvation outside the Church", but that does not mean other faith can not reach heaven. Rather, it is only through the grace from Jesus through his Church that salvation is possiblie to all. Also on infallibility: INFALLIBILITY Freedom from error in teaching the universal Churchin matters of faith or morals. As defined by the First Vatican Council, "The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra—that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church" (Denzinger 3074). The bearer of the infallibility is every lawful Pope as successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles. But the Pope alone is infallible, not others to whom he delegates a part of his teaching authority, for example, the Roman congregations. The object of his infallibility is his teaching of faith and morals. This means especially revealed doctrine like the Incarnation. But it also includes any nonrevealed teaching that is in any way connected with revelation. The condition of the infallibility is that the Pope speaks ex cathedra. For this is required that: 1. he have the intention of declaring something unchangeably true; and 2. he speak as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful with the full weight of his apostolic authority, and not merely as a private theologian or even merely for the people of Rome or some particular segment of the Church of God. The source of the infallibility is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Spirit, who protects the supreme teacher of the Church from error and therefore from misleading the people of God. As a result, the ex cathedra pronouncements of the Pope are unchangeable "of themselves," that is, not because others in the Church either first instructed the Pope or agree to what he says. (Etym. Latin in-, not + fallibilis; from fallere, to deceive: infallibilis, not able to deceive, or err.) All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission
There are many catholics in the traditional camp who would beg to differ. Here are the 3 declared "infallible" declarations: “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it: “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) But man, following the example of his natural father, Adam, often disobeys the authority of God. The fact that the doctrine had to be thrice defined itself proves the Church’s paternal solicitude in correcting her erring children who fall into indifferentism. The first goal of Saint Benedict Center’s doctrinal Crusade is to defend this doctrine. We present here a selection of various articles written for that end.
I had never heard of indiferentism before. It sounds like a modern heresy. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm
I think it is something the Saint Benedict's Center would accuse us of being. "At the end of the day we shall be judged by love", St. John of the Cross.
indifferentism cannot be dismissed so easily I may disagree with what Pope Gregory XVI says in his encyclical but i had better be aware i am doing so. The Church has roundly condemned this notion as a heresy in very strong language, holding it to be a denial of extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Here, we feature a brief passage from Mirari Vos, by the last great monk-pope, Gregory XVI (August 15, 1832). All emphasis (bold and italics), paragraph numbers, and reference numbers as in original on the Papal Encyclicals site; please go there to see the references. 13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”[20]14. This shameful font of indifferentism gives rise to that absurd and erroneous proposition which claims that liberty of conscience must be maintained for everyone. It spreads ruin in sacred and civil affairs, though some repeat over and over again with the greatest impudence that some advantage accrues to religion from it. “But the death of the soul is worse than freedom of error,” as Augustine was wont to say.[21] When all restraints are removed by which men are kept on the narrow path of truth, their nature, which is already inclined to evil, propels them to ruin. Then truly “the bottomless pit”[22] is open from which John saw smoke ascending which obscured the sun, and out of which locusts flew forth to devastate the earth. Thence comes transformation of minds, corruption of youths, contempt of sacred things and holy laws — in other words, a pestilence more deadly to the state than any other. Experience shows, even from earliest times, that cities renowned for wealth, dominion, and glory perished as a result of this single evil, namely immoderate freedom of opinion, license of free speech, and desire for novelty.— Pope Gregory XVI,
Yes but again there is a matter of interpetation, of nuance. For how do we view the Church , with our heads or with our hearts. Do you see it primarily as a human institution rather like a golf club for which we pay our dues and get our cards stamped or with our hearts as the Mystical Body of Christ into which we are incorporated through grace, the action of the Holy Spirit of love into the very image of Christ.? When we see it as the mystical Body of Christ we are confronted by Mystery and stand in awe when we see it institutional we look for and find black and white answers and look for membership cards.
I find the more I pray and read the less I know, but I have grown comfortable with this. Many however are made uncomfortable by Mystery. I think we often have to say, 'I simply do not know'. No one can do good without the action of the Holy Spirit, no one and where the Holy Spirit is present we encounter mystery and the incorporation of the soul into the Trinity and we find find the Holy Spirit in action in everyone at all times every where. I think there is always a danger in trying to nail things down too much.
