Apostasy

Don't forget Cardinal Sarah.

 

However I don't realy want to take too much hassle so I think I will begin to kick ass of the forum To quiet things down. . We will see.

 

I hope you will be able to let BH and Aloysius keep posting. Maybe they 'stir things up' a bit but so did Jesus! They are utterly faithful to the Pope and are a healthy counterbalance to the many forum members who seem to be fighting him!

 

Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral therefore mortal sins.

A mortal sin is an act that is so gravely immoral before God as to be entirely incompatible with true love of God and neighbour.

 

That call will always be yours Padraig. This is your Forum.
Would be sad for all of us , some of us might meet up elsewhere on other blogs . But it wouldn't be the same.
We are all coming from different angles to today's problems in the church. Yet in the end ...‘in time, one faith, one baptism, one Church, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. Sr Lucia.

 

Although you mean well David, and thank you again very much for your understsnding, but I have no idea what you are talking about "stirring things up" . I have never intentionally done this. Nor have I ever been guilty of heresy as Padraig says. BH was most accurate in his summing up. We were simply recalling similar times of study in which we experienced quite different effects. I was making no point. If Padraig has any grace he will apologise to me and probably should apologise to BH. Perhaps Padraig or I will soon be censured by heaven if we are guilty. If either of us deserve that I hope it will not be too severe. But I can see no other solution apart from Padraigs intent. I do not know how God sees all this but I feel it is all a complete fabrication. Aviso may even be the main culprit. He was the one who reinforced the false witness. Either way I hope Padraig gets the peace he craves. Me too. Like Padraig I hate to remember the times I was beaten but worse I hate to
remember the times I did not fight when I should have fought. In this case Padraig is seriously wrong and owes an apology. Perhaps this will give him peace and allow us all to move on. I belong to no faction. I am simply an ordinary Catholic on my journey of Faith within the church and Padraig has wronged this fellow traveller. I do not feel sorry for myself. I do feel Padraig should vindicate me without reserve or condition. If he can't that is his problem. I cannot make him believe me. But God can. Either way I unreservedly forgive him for the wrong he has done me. The rest is up to him. All or nothing. You can do what you will, Padraig, but I hope for your sake that is also God's will.

 

I havent followed this saga closely Joe , but I know Padraig doesnt kick people off lightly.
I once played a major part in getting BH kicked off this forum his first time. And it was all my own error , which eventually came to light . And Padraig did the right thing and reinstated him, just because it was the right thing to do.[oops ,sorry BH]

 

My

He may not kick people off lightly but he may kick people off wrongly. He should have done something about his hair trigger temper by now. Did Padraig apologise to BH for the previous wrong he did him?

 

No hard feelings ay BH?

 

G you are being confused by an ambiguity in the above statement that every Moral Theology 101 student is alerted to in their first year of study.

"Mortal sin" actually has two different though related meanings.
(1) It can be thought of as an impersonal, legally definable action (e.g one of the Commandments) divorced from any personal considerations involved in the real individual commission of such an action.
(2) It can be thought of as a complete, personal "moral act" with all the personal factors involved. Those factors are (a) "grave matter", (b) full understanding, (c) full consent.

From the Catechism we know that (2) above is the proper definition of "mortal sin":
"1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

"1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. "
Only when these three conditions are met can we talk of "an immoral act".
If we are only speaking of "grave matter" by itself - we are simply talking of a "disordered action."

What is "grave matter"? Grave matter is simply (1) above, the impersonal, objective legally defined action.
Put simply, it means the breaking of a Commandment.

So when a theologian talks of things like fornication, sodomy, adultery in the abstract ... he is really only talking about (1) above. He is talking only of "grave matter".

So only when all these three conditions are present can we say that mortal sin is actually committed and imputed to the person involved in this grave matter. Then a person becomes odious in the eyes of God and sanctifying grace is lost.


The Catechism clearly states people can be habitually involved in "grave matter" (disordered actions") without actually committing mortal sin but only venial sin or maybe no sin at all.

"1860 ...The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders."

And in connection with masturbation:
"2352 ...To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability. "

That doesn't mean their actions are not grave matter and not disordered as in (1) above. They certainly are. However, if consent or understanding is lacking... then an "immoral act" has NOT been committed. "Moral" refers to (2) above. For an act to be "moral" (meaning morally good or morally bad) consent and understanding must be present. For "mortal sin" that consent and understanding has to be fully present along with grave matter.

So the limitations of your above statement (wherever you got it from) are clear:
- "Unnatural sexual acts are intrinsically evil": this is true but it is really clearer to say "...are of grave matter" or "...are intrinsically disordered". This is just how the Catechism phrases it:
"2357 ...tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."
It does not say they are "immoral".
- "and always gravely immoral": this is somewhat clumsy. "Grave matter" by itself is not within the personal realm of "moral" (or immoral") activity. We have to first enquire as to the presence of the other two required conditions of a moral act.
-"therefore mortal sins [ie sins mortally].": the above issue is why this conclusion does not always follow.

Therefore some persons may well habitually "engage" (a moral theologian does not usually use the technical word "commit" if full consent/understanding is lacking) in grave matter yet not commit a mortal sin due to some constitutional reason that diminishes full consent or understanding.

 

Actually , Padraig kicked about 5 of us off in a row back a couple of years ago. Some of us deserved it of course, four of us are back
He doesnt hold a grudge for long.
But then you are Scottish, and Padraig Irish. Could be a problem

 

Both my grandparents were Irish....fighting Irish. They suffered great persecution, great injustice.

 

But youre Scottish?

 

I hated Scotland. I have only a few good memories of it. I make the most of them. That is why I left at 16. I do not dislike Padraig, just his attitude to me especially in this matter. It is unjustifiable. He may even chose to compound his wrong. That's his call.

 

Mac putting up with you is my "fire insurance" for the next life (as my agnostic dad used to say) .

 

Padraig if i may ask, what do you feel when you read when forum members refer to this forum as Our Lady's living room?

 

Joe, Padraig isn't one to verbally apologise, but I think your spirituality is strong enough to eventually take that in your stride isn't it?

 

[heres some extra cover]

 

Well, let me put it this way, Aloysius. I have no problems at all with anything you have written. However, Padraig does have concerns and he owns or is responsible for this forum. This means, in my book, that he can do what he likes with it. If he wants to remove someone whose name he dislikes or for ANY other reason, he is fully entitled to do so.

So I think that it is better to be gentle and allow your views to be misunderstood or misjudged. In a perfect world, there are no misunderstandings and no erroneous judgments but we don't live in a perfect world. If padraig is wrong about something, let God deal with the matter. Sorry if this has become a lecture but I really enjoy reading your posts and don't want you to 'disappear'