Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Mario, Sep 3, 2021.
The faithful have the right to receive on the tongue. You are correct.
While I fully respect and understand Mario's decision, I just want to let you know I completely understand what you're feeling here. Today I read only 25% of U.S. adults haven't been vaxxed yet. It really made me feel like the walls are closing in... As more give in, the pressure mounts on those of us that are left. If there is strength in numbers, then it's looking bleak for us and our freedoms at this point. But we must remind ourselves, God is ultimately in control. He is with us, by our side.
I don't know enough about what is truly going on in the world to really know why this vaccine is being pushed so hard on us. It sure doesn't look good when we see the sources pushing it and the deception and animosity involved. It gets even worse when you consider the aborted babies involved. The makers and pushers of the vaccine seem so immoral. But perhaps it's about money? Perhaps we are expendable and our harm doesn't matter to them as long as they get their money...and maybe there isn't some secret plan to cause us long term harm or kill us off? I mean, if that's the best case scenario, it's still pretty bad. I pray the worst case scenario isn't true.
But what if it is? Will God allow it? The elites have supposedly been trying to plan our mass deaths for many decades now. Has God allowed it so far? If He decides to allow it now, then that's His decision, not theirs.
How you're feeling is how I felt when my husband told me the other day that he would take the vaccine rather than losing his job, if it comes down to it. He's not willing to let his children go hungry to protect his own body from harm. I was indignant and angry that immoral people could present a scenario that leads to my husband backing down and letting them "win." It's unjust, and I want to stand against it! But I was forced to admit, there are even situations in which I would take that vaccine in a heartbeat, like if they threatened to separate me from my children. I think we all have a certain point at which we'd cave.
And this is not so different from what Christians have endured in many other places and times. Hasn't it always been the Christian's understanding that evil men may have control over our bodies, but it's our soul that's precious and ours alone? We are willing to hand over our bodies to be tortured and killed rather than deny Christ or what He's called us to. We go to Mass in secret even when being caught would kill us. We continue to teach others about Christ even when they may imprison us or strip all our rights away...right? So if we're fighting from the standpoint of protecting our freedom and standing up to evil men, well...there may come a point where following Christ, attending Mass, caring for others and our families may take precedence over our personal freedom. How far will they take things once we cave in? I don't know, but God does. They will take it only so far as He allows. He has allowed evil men to strip good men of all of their rights, even their right to life, many times, and He may do so again. If He does, He will bring good out of it. The blood of martyrs purifies and renews the world through God's grace.
Our job is not so much to stand up to evil men and protect our rights as it is to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Christ. He let the worldly authority put Him to death, telling them they only had this authority because the Father willed it. It's something to reflect on in these times.
The most vital thing for us to do right now is build a strong prayer life and stay close to the sacraments. We need so much grace to hear God's voice and discern His Will. When we feel peace in our hearts, we can be more certain we're on the right track. God doesn't lead us through fear or anger, so if either of those is driving our decisions, we need to quiet ourselves like a child and go to our God who has every tiny detail of our lives held tenderly in His hands.
And many faithful have been denied Communion on the tongue for the sake of science. So, is a priest obliged to obey a Bishop issuing such an instruction? Is there no limit to obedience? Sure, nobody has the authority to mandate committing a sin. The examples for that are usually mortal sins like murder, robbery, etc. But what about more grey areas? Normally, we would think that clarification from the Vatican would be sufficient. It wasn't sufficient for Communion on the tongue.
I don't suppose we will be able to figure it out on this little forum, so maybe it would be better had I not asked. On a brighter note, whenever I feel overwhelmed by bad news about the Church, I search for Scott Hahn on YouTube. Converts like him are proof that God is protecting the Church. I just watched his interview with Eric Sammons where he spoke about his book about Modern Biblical Scholarship. That's probably a little heavy for me but getting the new study Bible is top of my list.
I wholeheartedly recommend the video where Scott Hahn explains the significance of the Fourth Cup.
All I will say is that in the future where the real mark of the beast comes, you must not get it, not even for the sake of obedience. The coercion will be even greater than for these vaccines, where you cannot buy or sell even food without it. If the vaccine coercion is a sign of anything, they may even use the sacraments or excommunications to get you to agree to take it. All the religious authorities of the world are shilling for what the kings of the world want.
Well my point is your interpretation
My point is simply that one can interpret any"sign" to justify anything whatsoever. If you believe that the good Lord is directing you to take a morally compromised, ineffective, and unnecessary "vaccine" in order to lead souls to salvation then by all means fire ahead. But maybe just maybe it's all in your head. Moreover and to the point, you have absolutely no obligation to your bishop in this matter. Your bishop has zero authority and hence you have no obligation to obedience.
It's an awful position to be put in.
But things are going to get much worse. At some point we are all going to have to make a stand to say no that is going to cost us dearly even our freedom or our lives.
Some have made their stand now with the vaccine to resist now.
Others will make their stand a little later.
It's a big learning curve as we enter persecution times. But God will guide us and give us strength at the correct time.
I have learnt during covid times I am not as brave as I once thought I was. But that is good because now I know I have to rely more on God and pray for the gift of courage.
St Stephen, pray for us.
I understand Mario's decision and feel for him about this thread going on and on about his decision. I also and share your feelings PF.
Leaders globally are on record saying they would never accept a passport, and now they are. In the Old Testament, princes of the world are said to have lied to the people of Israel all the time. What happened that we forgot this?
I pray that people who choose the shots will stay healthy and strong enough to face the next decisions coming. Once the passports are in place, the next angle seems to be climate change criteria that will be tacked onto passports rights. Accepting shots seems like phase 1 - this will give people a taste of freedom for a short while, a few months until the next shots are required. And then will come the next level of restrictions to be able to travel, enter hospitals, etc.
The CFR has this document up on their site which says clearly that the next phase of attack is climate: "Through practical analyses of current policy and thoughtful guidance for successful climate adaptation, The Fight for Climate After COVID-19 reveals that, just as our society has transformed itself to meet the challenge of coronavirus, so too will we need to adapt our thinking and our policies to combat the ever-increasing threat of climate change."
Fight Climate After Covid-19
The folks at he CFR tell the President what to do.
When will it stop?
It may be out of the question now. It may not be out of the question in a year. The Bishop is subject to pressure, too. The more people fall over, the higher the pressure. Resistance has to occur now, otherwise it will be too late.
To clarify, I'll quote scripture. Revelation 13:
11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
By looking like a lamb but speaking like a dragon scripture means that the false prophet will appear religious in authority and persona, but what will give his true identity away and his lack of authority is that the false prophet teaches a false gospel. He will deceive the inhabitants of earth probably by praising the mark like a moral obligation. Those who know the true gospel will be able to recognize him, but he will be able to deceive many because he claims to have authority. Just as we see happening today with COVID and vaccines. People are praising what is happening because they don't understand their country's constitution or human rights and are so not able to recognize that things declared by men in office don't have authority and should be disobeyed.
It is an awful position for anyone, especially the ordained. It's a pity we are discussing it on Mario's thread because it gives the impression that some of us are leaning on Mario to influence his decision. That's the last thing I would want to do because, like you, I have learned that I need to pray a lot more for the gift of courage and the grace of perseverance. Easy for me to moralise now when I'm not under any real pressure but I doubt I would hold out for five minutes if the going got tough.
I think that some of the powerful have used the pandemic as a weather balloon to see how malleable are the populace in different countries. They know now. Is there some significance that it's in the place of Christ's birth, death and resurrection the authorities are leading the way in vaccine coercion? China and the US, the two most powerful countries on earth, were to the forefront of controlling the narrative. Israel, the place where God made man lived on earth, is the most obedient to earthly powers while God's ministers nod in approval. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Maybe not. Time will tell.
I do believe that the ecology religion will be the next weather balloon. Population control is the goal. Man gets to play God. Will we roll over on euthanasia as easily as we did on abortion - for the sake of humanity, our common home and the common good? Sure looks like it.
A bishop telling priests not to give communion has already happened. When the church/ mass was closed to the parish, my priest would say the mass and then come out into the parking lot and do “drive by communion”. The Bishop ordered him to stop and he stopped. Of course that was a general edict and all parishioners were effected.
I asked him once what would happen if the Bishop ordered him to keep the unvaccinated out of church or not to give communion to the unvaccinated. He looked at me with a painful serious look and said let us pray that it never comes to that. My interpretation was that my priest would indeed feel bound to follow the precepts of his Bishop.
Of course my thoughts could be wrong, he might also be thinking of the ramifications of disobeying his Bishop. Does a priest disobeying his bishop bring automatic excommunication and if so would then the consecration not occur and we would be receiving sacrilegiously?
I don't think you're reading too much into this. The nation of Israel as first born should have led humanity into the inheritance of the Kingdom of God, but its religious leaders committed deicide and that has consequences. But we know that God has a plan.
Roy Schoeman's has an interesting series about What is Judaism where he discusses the impact that the holocaust had on jewish faith and in particular on many rabbis and prominent voices. Since there is nothing in their theology to understand the profound sorrow of that event, he says many rabbis have lost faith since then and now practice a kind of social Judaism. If there is another similar event in history, how will they make any sense of this spiritually? Only with Christ is there meaning in sorrow, so this could be the trigger for conversion.
Whatever happened to that woman who was interviewed months ago in Israel who was fighting for freedom for shots? Ilana something? I haven't seen her in anything since then, but I've wondered how she is doing.
Someone would have to explain to me how such an order could be lawful. Can the clergy refuse communion to people who are baptised on such grounds? Or perhaps they would decide that the unvaxinated are in mortal sin to justify the order?
More likely the accusation will be that the unvaccinated are disobedient to the Bishop. We sorely need some catechesis on obedience but now is probably not the right time to request it. The results would be ambiguous at best. We're living in a time when 500 years after the Reformation we have prelates claiming to know more about its leaders than the Pope, prelates and theologians who lived through it. Do we really want the ecclesiastical version of Woodstock's relics defining anything, least of all obedience?
Very insightful post.
Fr Ripperger has a video talk about Catholic obedience. I wish I could remember the title. I know AED saw it and commented how it helped. I saw the first part of it.
I really feel for Mario that his personal decision has stirred up so much. I prayed for him and for all here at adoration today. The thought came to me that his situation is similar to Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his beloved son. This could be interpreted as a very evil thing with a tragic outcome. Abraham put his trust in God and everything worked out in a wonderful way. We can't decide what God wants or put him in a box. Sometimes we are called out of our comfort zone and asked to put all our trust in God. We will all be tested sooner or later. We need to take all our decisions to prayer and ask God to reveal His divine will to us.
We are in a horrible situation. When Pope Francis, and PE Benedict were both vaccinated it was like a warning shot was fired from the Vatican. Our Pope was sending a message loud and clear to clergy and the faithful that it was our moral obligation to be vaccinated to prevent the spread of Covid. Those who decided against vaccination quickly discovered that they were standing alone with no support from the Church. Very few clergy have taken a stand, like Bishop Strickland, who has offered his help with exemptions. Under these circumstances, how terribly difficult must it be for someone like Mario who has devoted his life to serve the sick and dying, to be told his ministry at the hospital will be over if he does not get vaccinated. If a Catholic feels forced to get the jabs, it is because our Church is divided and weakened under Pope Francis. This in itself is a terrible chastisement, and our suffering has only just begun.
Thanks, me too.
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