Sorry, for some reason your posts above weren't on my screen when I did my post! I'll review it later and comment if there's anything more to say my truth and consequences friend. Anyways Mac, I am simply revealing my views and where I am at in my journey with God. I do this because you are asking me my views and also because my experience may be of assistance to you in your faith journey. If I exceed your credibility limits that's fine, just ignore me as deluded! But whether you think my views are right or wrong that's where I am and they are acceptable Catholic views, as are yours. We are all works in progress and I am sure God doesn't need me to guide you to His truth. Yes I have more taxi stories! Used to drive to pay for my "waste of time" theology degree . My "friends" thought I was a nutter taking religion so seriously at the age of 18.
I still cant see why you wont accept the truth I have shown . How hard would it be to just say ''Yes Mac ,there are consequences .I was wrong'' Our Lord warned of big consequences. Later, through an intimate communication, Our Lord complained to me: ‘They did not wish to heed My request! ... Like the King of France they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late. Russia will have already spread its errors in the world, provoking wars and persecutions against the Church. The Holy Father will have much to suffer.’
Cmon BH , anything? You were telling me to seek the truth..''If the primary source documents of something in the past are available to us, if we but took the effort to seek them out, why would we not do that instead of somewhat blindly treading the well worn path''.
The Holy Father.. Jacinta was graced with two visions of the Holy Father. Lucy and Francisco did not have them and Jacinta asked Lucy if she could tell anybody about them. Lucy told her she should not tell anyone because they were really part of the Secret. This is another reason why we know the Third Secret concerns the Holy Father. It does not deal with the Holy Father alone but it definitely concerns him. In Jacinta's first vision of the Holy Father, he was in a large room. He is in tears. Outside, were a lot of people who hated him and were expressing their anger at him. They were saying terrible things and throwing stones at him. In her second vision of the Pope, Jacinta sees him out in the open field, praying before an image of Our Lady. The streets are lined with people who are starving and the people are praying with the Holy Father. View attachment 3222
Mac I couldn't track down the original article but I can still give you some tips for you to run to ground. Most are written by the same "hostile witness" your own article quoted above. This originally skeptical yet affirmative witness was Avelino de Almeida. He was in fact the reporter for the the O Seculo newspaper covering the Fatima events. However your article writer did cherry pick his quotes from Avelino. The following additional quotes do restore balance and indicate how confusing was the afternoon of 13th Oct 1917 and how varied the experiences actually were: (1) It seems some people pretended to see things not wanting to be "left out" as it were: "Most confess that that they have seen the dancing of the sun but others, however, declare they have seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself. " (2) Discrepancies over the time the Apparition appeared, some report 1.30pm, others 1pm? Some sources say sun events were reported by witnesses well into late afternoon with many staying until dusk accordingly. "Some say that they saw it change colour. It was about three in the afternoon." (Avelino, O Seculo) Yet the "official" line suggests it only occured for 11 minutes from 1.30pm (or is it 1pm). (3) Avelino's photographer, standing close to him, is one of the witnesses who is reported (by Avelino?) unable to see the solar phenomenon. Which is why he took the well known photos of the crowds looking up instead. Interestingly he seems to have been Jewish - suggesting like Maria Cruz at Garabandal - a form of disciplining for rejecting Christ? "One of those who witnessed and reported the strange solar phenomena was Avelino de Almeida, a reporter who had ridiculed the so-called miracles at Fatima in previous articles. His photographer did not see it, but shot pictures of the mesmerized crowd looking into the sky." http://www.sacred-destinations.com/portugal/fatima-shrine-of-our-lady-of-fatima Large numbers of men did not show reverence by not taking off their hats. "Identical scenes are repeated in other places and a woman shouts, bathed in tears and almost suffocated, ‘What a shame! There are still men who don’t take off their hats in the presence of such a miracle.’ (By Avelino in O Seculo). Is it unbiased interpretation to conclude all these men were stubborn unbelievers unwilling to admit the miracle they saw? Or is it more reasonable to say that significant numbers may have actually seen nothing? Why wait for hours in the rain if one doesn't believe anyway? Either way this also casts reasonable doubt on the pious exaggeration that "all saw". There are further discrepancies about what the children actually saw in their original Apparition (how she was dressed) and clear evidence of censorship ("cherry-picking") by the priest who interviewed them because he personally did not believe it possible Mary would dress that way. But that is another issue, here we are just wondering whether it is indeed a "fact" that "all saw."
Another little known miracle in Fatima... On the night of March 6, 1922, the little Chapel raised up by the piety of the faithful was blown up with dynamite. A curious fact, which the people attributed to the protection of Heaven, is that all the bombs exploded, except the one that was to blow up the remains of the tree of the apparitions! The news of the odious attempt caused a wave of indignation throughout the country, and protests from the Catholics made themselves heard even in Parliament. Without venturing to approve openly of the attempt, the Government threatened, however, to employ severe measures to put a stop to the "reactionary movement of Fatima." In answer to these threats, the faithful launched the idea of a pilgrimage of reparation. On October 13, 1922, ten thousand pilgrims went from the Church of Fatima in a procession of reparation to Cova da Iria, a distance of two miles, where they assisted at Mass celebrated in the open air. This local reparation was followed, on May 13, 1923, by a pilgrimage of national reparation, in which over sixty thousand persons from all classes of society, and all provinces in the country, took part. The offerings on this day were so plentiful that the required sum was soon collected to build a chapel more beautiful still than the first. The Prefect of Santarem wished at all cost to prevent this pilgrimage, which he called "a parade of all the reactionary forces in the country"; but the sub-Prefect of Ourem judged it more prudent not to execute the orders received for fear of being submerged. Gradually the peaceful but resolute strength of this multitude, which confessed its faith so loudly, ended by triumphing over the sectarianism of the Government and its functionaries, who no longer dared insist! On May 13, 1924, Our Lady of the Rosary of Fatima rewarded once more the love of Her pilgrims, by showering down on them from Heaven a magnificent rain of flowers. Thenceforth the pilgrims of Fatima continued to come with all freedom, increasing in numbers and fervor. I cant find any google image to put up . I have in an old book from the 40s an authentic photo . It is terrible quality unfortunately ,but would scan and upload it if anyone is interested.
Thanks for trying BH. I can only remember you mocking the source when I used it. And rightly so. He was a freemason under pressure to undermine Fatima.
I will try Torrentum , but will have to get my wife to scan it because I dont know how . And again be warned , it is terrible quality , but at least the book has the imprimatur from ...yikes ...Ill scan that page as well . To much info
I think you will find this a very interesting read as it gives a full account of what it was like to be there at the time of the Apparitions the author is a witness to this truth, having lived at Fatima for many years. There is also a good account of the interrogations of the three children by their local pastor, Father Manuel Ferreira. A considerable portion of this book is based on the writings of the Portuguese priest, Dr. Manuel Formigao, whose first work on the subject, entitled Os Episodios Maravilhosos de Fatima (The Marvelous Events of Fatima), appeared in 1921. It is a faithful, painstaking account of the good priest's many interviews with the children, and of the impression they made upon him. THE TRUE STORY OF FATIMA Father John de Marchi, I.M.C, http://marienfried.com/mary page/fatima page/story of fatima/story of fatima - complete book.html We were perfectly right to be afraid, for on March 6 of the next year we heard a terrible explosion during the night. The Freemasons had placed four bombs in the chapel, and a fifth by the tree where Our Lady appeared. The roof was blown off, but the bomb by the tree did not explode.
Mac I don't follow you? I believe this is the same guy you mentioned above to make your case who was at first hostile then "converted" come reporting on the day of the miracle. My quotes were from the same Almeida newspaper article you used but which your third party author left out. Where exactly do you belive I was mocking your source (Almeida) above? I was surprised and teased you a little (not mocking either you or your source ) for your easy trust in single cherry-picked quotes from a single witness and for not addressing, or perhaps not averting to, seeming contradictory testimony. This, from my own training, appears to be the sine qua non of doing serious and credible research on "the facts" of anything let alone Fatima.
Thats great . I take this notice from the article to show the strong yet futile opposition.... A Masonic Notice Citizens! As if the pernicious propaganda of reactionaries were not enough, we now see a miracle trotted out in order further to degrade the people into fanaticism and superstition. There has been staged... an indecorous comedy in Fatima at which thousands of people have assisted, a ridiculous spectacle in which the simple people have been ingeniously deceived by means of collective suggestion, into a belief in a supposed apparition of the Mother of Jesus of Nazareth to three children jockeyed into this shameful spectacle for the commercial purposes of clerical reaction! As if, however, the declarations of these poor little dupes who affirm they have seen a "Virgin" which, however, nobody else can see and hear, were not sufficient, it is affirmed, or rather invented, that the sun, at a certain hour on October 13, 1917, (on the eighth anniversary of the assassination of Francisco Ferrer) and in the height of the 20th century, was seen to dance a fandango in the clouds! This, citizens, is a miserable attempt to plunge the Portuguese people once more into the dense darkness of past times which have departed never to return. The Republic and those citizens who are charged with the noble and thankless task of guiding it in the glorious paths of civilization and progress, cannot consent to the degradation of the people into fanaticism and credulity, for this would be an unpardonable failing in their primal duty not only toward their country but to humanity as a whole. It is therefore our duty to demand from the public authorities the most energetic and immediate precautions against the shameless plan by which reaction seeks to plunge the people once more into medievalism.... What shall be our means of co-operation with those from whom we claim the action necessary for the end we envisage? An intensive and tenacious propaganda, which will raise the mentality of our citizens to the realms of truth, reason and science, convincing them that nothing can alter the laws of nature, and that the pretended miracles are nothing but miserable tricks to abuse the credulity which is the child of ignorance... Let professors in the schools and colleges educate their pupils in a rational manner, liberating them from religious preconceptions as from all others, and we shall have prepared a generation for the morrow, happier because more worthy of happiness. Let us, then, liberate ourselves and cleanse our minds, not only from foolish beliefs in such gross and laughable tricks as Fatima, but more especially from any credence in the supernatural and a pretended Deus Omnipotente, omniscient and omni-everything, instrument of the subtle imaginations of rogues who wish to capture popular credulity for their purposes. Long Live The Republic! Down With Reaction! Long Live Liberty!
“What Sister Lucia told me: ‘Final Confrontation between the Lord and satan will be over family and marriage.’” Cardinal Carlo Caffara Archbishop of Bologna, made the above statement in an interview on February 16, 2008. On March 8, 2008 the interview was subsequently reported in the monthly magazine Voce di Padre Pio. In the interview Cardinal Caffara was asked to comment on the following: “There is a prophecy by Sister Lucia dos Santos of Fatima, which concerns ‘the final battle between the Lord and the kingdom of satan.’ The battlefield is the family; Life and the family. We know that you were given charge by John Paul II to plan and establish the Pontifical Institute for the Studies on Marriage and the family.” The Cardinal responded: “Yes, I was. At the start of this work entrusted to me ..., I wrote to Sister Lucia of Fatima through her bishop as I couldn’t do so directly. Unexplainably however, since I didn’t expect an answer, seeing that I had only asked for prayers, I received a very long letter with her signature – now in the Institute’s archives. In it we find written: the final battle between the Lord and the reign of satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid, she added, because anyone who works for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be fought and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue.” That interview was seven years ago, three years after Canada became the fourth country in the world (and the first country outside of Europe) to “legalize” so-called same sex “marriage”
If the above really comes from Sr Lucia , then it seems time is short before we see the final unfolding of the prophecy of Fatima. The Annihilation of nations.
Eamonn my own research into primary Fatima sources has led me to conclude that Fr Fomigao and Fr Ferreira are faithful interviewers of the 3 children from the earliest times. However De Marchi , who martialed their material for public consumption, had to somewhat over simplify this source material in doing so - glossing over or leaving out contradictory reports or hard to accept testimony. His somewhat black and white easily understood version of events has become the traditional "texts receptus" version of Fatima we have all grown up with and is the basis of scores of pious Fatima books since. Those complete primary sources he was allowed to use have been kept locked away until 2010. They have now been released by the Fatima Sanctuary authority but only in Portuguese - the volume was actually published 1992 but only for internal access. It is fairly clear that there was some confusion, forgetfulness and at times even contradiction in the children between their own repeated reports over time and between themselves. So while the broad facts are clear enough it becomes more difficult to know what the real facts are when we try to zoom in on moderate to fine detail. Consequently the smooth flowing impression we have today is possibly but one of a number of ways things could have been edited together on the finer points. The source material is more varying than perhaps we realise on those finer points.
Give it up BH. DID EVERYBODY SEE IT? Did all the pilgrims present at the Cova da Iria, without exception, see the solar miracle? Such is the question we must now try to resolve. CONTRADICTING TESTIMONIES? «Others», writes Gerard de Sede, «saw nothing at all. This was the case with the parish priest of Penacova, who could not bring himself to believe in the miracle, even during the dance of the sun.» Where did that come from? Gerard de Sede is careful not to indicate the precise source of his information! But here it is: during the canonical process Manuel Antonio de Paula related that the parish priest of Penacova, even though he saw perfectly well «a little cloud, which was fairly dense» above the holm oak, could not be convinced that it was not of smoke. «Even during the dance of the sun, he could not bring himself to believe in the miracle. Seeing the colour red on the clothes of the people, he explained to Mr. de Paula: “They are all wearing red shawls.” The witness charitably corrected him, showing him it was impossible for so many people to be wearing the same colour clothing. Moreover, the ecclesiastical sceptic soon saw the same immense crowd clothed in a golden yellow.»3 So the parish priest of Penacova saw perfectly well the phenomena observed by everybody else! They seemed so objective, so “natural” to him, that he naively refused to believe that there was a miracle! There is another discordant testimony put forward by G. de Sede: that of the lawyer, Pinto Coelho. In the Catholic journal A Ordem, he plays the devil’s advocate and claimed that there was no miracle. Yet it is certain that our lawyer saw the same phenomena as all the other witnesses. He himself admits as much: «The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceedingly fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat.»4 Here is the important fact, which alone concerns us. The explanations advanced by our lawyer are so poor that we need not even examine them: «A collective psychology was established in the crowd, etc.»5 We have heard that tune before! Finally G. de Sede quotes... the testimony of Lucy, who declared on several occasions: «I myself saw nothing!» Indeed, absorbed by the Vision that she contemplated during this time, contrary to all the other pilgrims, she did not see the solar miracle in all its successive phases. That is easily understandable. And that is all! It is astonishing that G. de Sede was unable to quote a single valid testimony of somebody who clearly affirmed that he saw nothing! “THE CASE” OF IZABEL BRANDAO DE MELO. Yet there is such a case – the only one, as far as we know. It is the case of Izabel Brandao de Melo. On October 31, 1917, in a letter to a Swiss priest, Father Gelase, after having described the prodigy she continued: «This is what was said by those around me, and what thousands of people affirm that they saw. As for myself, I saw nothing! I could indeed look at the sun and I was terribly agitated to hear everybody shouting that there were extraordinary signs in the sky. I believe that I was not found worthy by Our Lord to see these phenomena, but in my soul I had no need to see them to believe in the apparition of the Holy Virgin to the children.»6 In 1950, Father Martindale mentioned “two English ladies” who had not seen anything either.7 What, exactly, was he referring to? In 1974, it seemed that they had metamorphosized... for the same author then wrote: «We know of two devout Portuguese women who saw nothing at all...»8 The information is vague. Undoubtedly it refers once again to the same Izabel Brandao de Melo, who had decidedly become the star witness! In his article against Fatima, the future Cardinal Journet did not fail to mention her: «I have heard of a very cultured Portuguese lady who, for her greater desolation, saw nothing.»9 Is this one witness enough to be able to say, with Dom Jean-Nesmy: «There are however some discordant voices. Some people saw nothing.»10? For is it not already surprising that this devout lady affirms: «I was able to stare at the sun.»? Now it was a clear sky. Is not this fact by itself extraordinary and abnormal? She also confesses that she was «terribly agitated...» Father A. Richard writes, and with reason: «If a few persons in this huge crowd claim they saw nothing, that can be explained by the peculiarities and inattention of certain people, and still more by their fear when faced with these unusual phenomena on October 13, to the point where all their powers of sensation were hindered, so that they could not testify to anything – like the victim of an accident who no longer remembers anything. «A few years ago we questioned a Portuguese woman who later became a nun, and who was present at the Cova da Iria on October 13. At that time she was a young woman of nineteen. She could not remember at all “the beautiful colours of the rainbow” which were described by so many witnesses. She had realized only one thing: she was going to die, the world was going to end. Right near her two people had fainted. The terrible anguish that gripped her had kept her from discerning all the rich diversity of the phenomenon.»11 This case is not unique: «My wife – we had been married only a short time – fainted, and I was too upset to attend to her», recalls Alfredo da Silva Santos. «My brother-in-law, Joao Vassallo, supported her on his arm. I fell on my knees oblivious of everything and when I got up I don’t know what I said. I think I began to cry out like the others.»12 A few other discrepancies in details, have been found in various statements of the witnesses. This is completely normal when it is a question of such varied phenomena, whether simultaneous or successive, and moreover such unusual and impressive ones.13 Thus after examining the question we can affirm – at least until solid witnesses to the contrary appear – that everybody present at the Cova da Iria, as well as Alburitel, could see the prodigious solar phenomenon. At the end of his investigation Father de Marchi could write: «Up to the present we have not met a single person among the many we have questioned who has not confirmed the phenomenon.»14 In 1958, Father Richard noticed the same unanimity among all the witnesses he had encountered: «For them, there was no question. They could not even imagine anyone asking the question whether somebody had not seen anything.» The same goes for Alburitel. «Did everybody around you see it?» Canon Lourenço, who was nine years old in 1917, answered this question of Father Richard without hesitation: «I am absolutely sure that everybody saw it.»15 In 1960, John Haffert reached the same conclusion: all those who simply bothered to look saw the great solar sign. In conclusion, it would be astonishing if it had been otherwise. On July 13 Our Lady had promised: «In October, I will work a miracle so that all may see and believe.» The most faithful Virgin kept Her promise. http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/
Very hastily made . I know it has editing issues . Getting better at it though . This took about an hour an a half...
