Hi, I'm glad to have found this forum. I've been researching the messages from the Second Coming Warning site, - I see there's a thread about them. My question isn't so much specifically about the messages but about an idea that they contain that some other private revelations contain also. They talk of a reign of Christ on earth lasting 1000 years, after the Second Coming... however I read in the Catechism that the Church rejects Millenialism, though - I don't know if it's talking about this type of MIllenialism, or another type... I really don't know and feel confused about this. I really don't want to reject anything from God. I also want to be faithful to the Church. I feel stuck and can't seem to make any decision. In Scripture, it says in Revelation that those who didn't follow the antichrist would reign for a thousand years with Jesus: I am not certain if this is talking about the 1000 year reign, or something symbolic like our age of the Church (in Heaven). However, the antichrist hasn't come and gone yet. Today I felt like the message about the 1000 year reign was from God. Then I went to Adoration and prayed about all these thoughts and really felt like God just wants me to trust Him and not worry so much. I tried to trust Him. Then I felt like these messages are not from God (I believe in the Warning because it was prophesied by St Faustina and Blessed Anna Maria Taigi, but I mean other things in the messages). However, later on I felt like I need to believe in them, and like I am offending God for rejecting something from Him. Now I'm just confused. Clearly my feelings are not reliable! I tried the intellectual research approach and that didn't work either, because I got confused with just what the Church teaching is on Millenialism. I see there are people here who are knowledgeable about different private revelations, etc, I would really appreciate any help or information you could share or prayers too! thanks!! God bless
Here's an explanation by Colin B. Donovan, STL Endtimes, Millennium, Rapture The term "endtimes" applies both to the era of Christ's first coming (Heb 1:2, 1 Cor 10:11, Heb 9:26) and to the events immediately before his return and the end of the ages (Mt 24:13, 2 Tim 2:1, 2 Peter 3:3). The definitive Catholic teaching on the endtimes is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the discussion of the article of the Creed, "From thence He will come again to judge the living and the dead." [CCC 668-682] As the Creed infallibly teaches, the Second Coming is associated with the end of the world and the Last Judgment. Therefore, it is NOT associated with any earlier time - such as to establish a "Millennium." The Catholic Church specifically condemns "millenarianism," according to which Jesus will establish a throne in this world and reign here for a thousand years [CCC 676]. She teaches instead that Jesus already reigns in eternity (1 Cor. 15:24-27, Rev. 4 & 5) and that in this world His reign, established as a seed, is found already in the Church [CCC 668-669]. This is the 1000 years, which is the Hebrew way of indicating an indefinite long time - in this case, the time between the first and second comings, the era of the Church, in other words the last days in the broadest sense.The Book of Revelation situates this era between the persecutions of the Roman antichrists of the first century and the final unleashing of evil at the end. Naturally, non-Catholics cannot accept that the Catholic Church represents Christ in this world, so they are forced to look for a personal earthly reign somewhere out in the future. The notion that Jesus will come, reign, and then depart, so that the devil can trick the world again, is incompatible with the incomprehensible dignity of the Lord and His love for His people. Jesus' Coming will be definitive, triumphant and ever-lasting, NOT temporal and limited. As for the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thes 4:15-17 is that at the return of Christ (v.15) and the General Resurrection of the Dead (v.16), those who survive the persecution of the Antichrist will have no advantage in being resurrected over those who died before His Coming [CCC 1001]. All will go to meet Him and be with Him forever (v.17; cf. Rev 20:17-21:27). The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are, 1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church 2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1) 3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist. 4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment. As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel." Approved Catholic mystics (Venerables, Blessed and Saints, approved apparitions) throw considerable light on this order, by prophesying a minor apostasy and tribulation toward the end of the world, after which will occur the reunion of Christians. Only later will the entire world fall away from Christ (the great apostasy) and the personal Antichrist arise and the Tribulation of the End occur. Although this is not Catholic doctrine, arising as it does from private revelation, it conforms to what is occurring in our time, especially in light of Our Lady of Fátima's promise of an "Era of Peace." This "Triumph of the Immaculate Heart" (other saints have spoken of a social reign of Jesus Christ when Jesus will reign in the hearts of men) would seem to occur prior to the rise of the Antichrist. The optimism of the Pope for the "New Evangelization" and a "Civilization of Love" in the Third Millennium of Christianity fits here, as well. This would place us, therefore, in the period just before the events spoken of in the Catechism, that is, on the verge of the evangelization of the entire world. Other interpretations are possible, but none seem to fit the facts as well, especially when approved mystics are studied, instead of merely alleged ones.
You don't need the warningsecondcoming website to guide you. It's a private revalation--there's no penalty of sin for staying away from it. Obviously, it's bringing you turmoil, so don't visit it anymore. Get out of the mindset that if you doubt these alleged messages, you doubt Christ Himself. The messages seem to insinuate exactly that and that's another reason I think they're bogus. When in doubt cling to Tradition, Scripture and the Magesterium. When you follow the teachings of the Church, you follow Christ, and that's enough. So be at peace.
Thank you for the reply! If I did believe in a millenial reign, did that make me a heretic since the Church is against this? I believed it even after reading the Catechism section. But what about in some approved revelations, - there are statements about a "period of peace" during which there would be the Cathoic Monarch, a great Pope, etc... how is this different from Postmillenialism, do you know? (I guess it would not be Premillenialism cause the Second Coming would come after, according to these private revelations). Can Catholics believe in that? I do feel kind of afraid of 'letting go' of the Warning Second Coming messages, I wouldn't outright reject them but probably just give it all to God. I know that there it talks about doubting Christ's words if one is doubting the messages. I know this has been in false private revelations.. but something similar has been in true private revelations, for example how Our Lady of Good Success (I think) says that those who accept the apparitions would be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to accept them, and also St Louis de Montfort talks about something similar in True Devotion to Mary... I guess if something is true, it is treated seriously. But I didn't feel afraid maybe because I accept Our Lady of Good Success and True Devotion lol Today, I felt like I had to choose between rejecting Church teaching and rejecting Christ's words.. and that is very confusing because you'd expect they'd never be contrary to each other. I ended up just surrendering the problem to God but it's not perfectly clear yet, I need to pray more. I'll still believe in the Warning, etc, and be prepared, because other messages talk about this too including approved private revelations from the Saints or Blesseds. But the part about the Millennium reign, I just don't know what to think. I find it confusing that at one point I prayed about it and felt a lot of peace about the idea. I know that feelings aren't reliable ways to discern theology, of course. And when I prayed in Church, the impression was different.
I would always, always, always go with the teachings of the Church. If a thousand bright angels came and taught me different I would splach holy water on tem , laugh at them and walk away. There is a period called in Catholic Prophecy the, 'Triumph of Mary' when Satan's back will be as it were broken. Goodness knows it needs broken. I should be somewhat cautious of the 'Second Coming Site'..I believe it requires discernment, which , happily enough the Church is doing at the minute.
What padraig said and I'll add to that. Millenarianism is the belief Jesus Christ will return in the flesh to visibly rule the earth for a literal one thousand years. This has been condemned as heresy by the church. I'm not sure if this is what you believe. Even if you do I wouldn't know if it makes you a heretic. If I understand correctly believing in a millennialism isn't necessarily heretical. It's the belief that the world will enjoy a long period of peace before the end of days. Some connect millennialism with a belief that Christ will descend in bodily form to visibly rule the earth for a thousand years--this is condemned by the church. Others expect this Era of Peace to be a time when men turn toward Christ via the Eucharist, and hearts become inflamed with love, bringing peace to much of the world. Christ's reign will be in the spiritual sense, not physical. As far as know this kind of millennialism isn't contrary to church teaching. You probably know this, but thought I'd mention it. In the bible "a thousand years" usually isn't meant to be taken as exactly ten centuries. It's a metaphor for a long long time. Which specific words of Christ are contrary to which specific Church teaching?
I love your name Little Flower! These are always great conversations aren't they? I always learn something. Rain- thanks- you clarified a few things for me as well. Little Flower: I think one of the things I have learned to hold close is that during this time we are faced with many fake prophets- so discernment is really important. If you find that your anxiety is rising and you feel helpless- this is not good and possibly a sign that either you are not currently in good prayer habits and thus feel like you must do more OR the prophet may be instilling fear and confusion in you, which is the work of the devil. God, Mary, the Holy Spirit, Jesus- they all come to comfort and guide us not send us into a tail spin and have us hunting up the latest technology to survive the end times. go ahead and have a survival plan- get some water and some canned goods etc. and then put that in God's hands. As far as the rest of it, gain control by following His Word. If you know you are doing what God wants- regular and constant prayer, attendance at mass, confession, following the commandments- you are in control of what you need to be. Hand the rest to God and go on with it. That is a message that I gained from the folks here on this forum--- I still had to go through my own period of research and discovery--- but I use the anxiety barometer to assess messages now. If they encourage prayer and thats what you follow out of the message- it wont matter if it is wrong. If they encourage you to follow their site for if you don't you will miss out on God's word or if you don't buy their book you will die in sin--- hmmmm that doesn't sound quite right. There are plenty of approved visionaries if you really want to dive into it. Stick to them. It is fascinating. I personally think that the Book of Revelations is really important to read. Welcome, welcome, welcome! Good discussion! Pray, pray, pray Kath
I guess I'll ask my priest because that is what I believed I see... so we can believe in the period of peace? I think the danger of that is turning it into Postmillenialism, - believing that the Church will come to this through its own efforts, not through God's direct intervention. But maybe believing in a period of peace as a result of God's intervention, is fine. Okay Yes, I've read about this before the part about the 1000 years.. there's a message that talks about the Second Coming happening and then a 1000 year reign of Christ, but I'm *not sure* if it's referring to a visible reign of Christ or spiritual/Eucharistic one. It would be unfortunate to reject these messages on that account and then find out they only referred to a spiritual reign of Christ. I'm not very sure what to do about the messages. Maybe just leave them up to God, not reject them, and be prepared just in case, but leave the Millennium teaching up to Him.
Kathleen, thank you for the welcome and the reply From private revelations, I mostly always read those that are accepted by the Church and from the Saints.. such as St Faustina's Diary or Way of Divine Love. They are helpful and bring me closer to God. I came across the website for warningsecondcoming and began reading the messages, and since the Warning is mentioned in some other prophesies (I dont even mean Garabandal), I began taking them seriously. I was praying to prepare for the Warning, etc. I still think it might happen eventually or maybe even soon. I don't think we should be afraid, but simply stay in a state of grace and receive the Sacraments and pray for others to come to God. So I think there are true things in the messages, but I can't figure out about the Millennium. If it's talking about a spiritual reign of Christ, then it woudln't contradict Church teaching perhaps. But if it's talking about a literal reign of Christ, then it probably does... and I'm having trouble letting go of the messages because I think what if they are from God, and yet I don't want to disagree with the Church, I've always believed Church teachings. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding something in the messages, I don't know. I guess if all these things begin to happen then we'll know if it's telling the truth. It would be very confusing though, because that would imply the Church is wrong about millennialism, but the Church is infallible.. I don't know if this teaching is more of a theological opinion, or a doctrine. I'm still going to submit to the Church's teaching though, I dont want to be disobedient.
I just thought of something... the idea that Jesus would come to earth and then reign in a visible way as a King on earth, - is the idea that I was told is rejected by the Church... but what about the idea that there would be the Second Coming, and then the earth would be renewed and become maybe more of a spiritual place (the messages talk about Heaven and earth being merged somehow), and people who didn't follow the antichrist living there with Jesus for a thousand years, and then the general Resurrection of the dead and the Last Judgement?? then everyone who will be raised to new life in the general Resurrection, who is saved, they would live in that same earth and Heaven also. I'm not saying this is how it will be, I was just wondering, would this be against Church teaching? because we're no longer talking about a merely earthly kingdom.... but the KIngdom of the Resurrection (just not everyone enters at once). In Revelation it talks about people who didn't follow the antichrist and didn't get the mark, - living with Christ for a thousand years. I'm just wondering if this interpretation would be against Church teachings? :?: or, is the new Heaven and earth only after the general Resurrection of the dead??
IIt's a realy interesting topic and central to the practise of our faith. Certainy many of our Protestant sisters and brothers are millenialists..and very active ones, actualy planning for this event, through for instance the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem which they beieve will Herald the Second Coming. However, besides the teachings of the Church..and thank God for them. My own srcipture reading and my own prayer journey militate very much against such an idea. Just before Jesus Ascended into heaven He told us He would send the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit to guide us. John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Also notice just after Jesus was taken into heaven angels were sent from heaven to tell the Apostels, forgive me, to move their butts and stop gazing into the sky. To me this is what millenialism essentially is, sky gazing. I read a Rabbi one time who was asked by Students where God is? To which one of them replied, 'He is everywhere!' To which the Rabbi replied, 'No, he is everywhere we let Him in'. I think this is the danger of Millenialism , that we close the door to the everyday presence of God and we like the Apostles gaze at the sky and don't walk in faith in the everyday. If Jesus did come and reign on Earth He would be clsoing the door to the Holy Spirit whom we embrace in Faith. Fiath would then be dead and so too the journey, hand in hand with the SPirit. In a real way the Mystery of the Ascension, which we pray in ROsary teaches us we must loose Jesus in order to find Him. Whereas Millenialism essentially teaches that we much find Jesus in order to find Him,which negates the need for Faith. It is esentially the murderer of the here and now, the assassination of the Kingdom of God within.
That's interesting that they believe rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem will herald the Second Coming... I read in Catholic prophecies by the early Church Fathers that the antichrist would rebuild the Temple and proclaim himself as the "Messiah".. That is an interesting thought.. I think that is true, we shouldn't focus too much on the end times etc but just seek to live with God now, because He could come today or in hundreds of years.. maybe focusing too much on these things prevents us from trying to grow in virtue, because all our attention is on the future. God bless
I have this article bookmarked. It's more about the rapture, but it's helpful to this discussion. I refer to it from time to time because I have trouble remembering the terminology. I highly suggest reading the entire article. It's an excellent summary. See entire article here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-rapture I do know there's different kinds of millenialism. Among Protestants there's Postmillennialism, Amillenialism (mid) and Premillenialism (rapture). I might be wrong here, so somebody correct me where I've errored, but I see millenialism as an umbrella under which many different beliefs hang out. Milleniarianism (the belief that Jesus will literally sit on a throne on earth to reighn earth a thousand years) is one form of millenialism. I see the two terms used interchangably all over the place, but I question if it's right to treat them as one-and-the-same. I see why people get confused. I know I do. As far as the millennium goes, the Catholic position goes along with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillenial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers) though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillenial position, sometimes called "milleniarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillenialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
Thanks for the reply! I'm sorry if my questions are sort of repetitive, I have a hard time understanding these things sometimes. I don't understand what this part in Revelation refers to (the bolded part) "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison..." it seems it's saying here that there's a literal or figurative 1000 years in which the devil is chained, and then the devil is loosed out of prison and then probably the end of the world comes and the Last Judgement. It's all unclear to me because: - if the 1000 years is symbolic for the present time, why does it talk about martyrs who didn't worship the beast, being on the thrones (I guess in Heaven?). The beast and the antichrist hasn't come yet? Unless they're talking about evil in general. - what does it mean that the rest of the dead didn't live till the thousand years were finished?
The first resurrection is baptism, when we transformed from mortals to members of the Immortal Body of Christ. At bodily death a Christian's soul goes to heaven where it waits for the second resurrection, Judgment Day, when the body reunites with the soul. For those who rejected Christinaity, didn't receive baptism, the second resurrection is like a second death because they'll be cast into hell body and soul.
little flower, I don't know if you are fimiliar with Mark Mallett. He has written extensively on his blog about the subject and even has a book out, The Final Confrontation. I believe the important thing to realize is that Western Civilization has rejected its Christian roots and, in the midst of political and economic turmoil, has laid an axe to the tree, itself, meaning the Church. Our response is obvious: stand up for her, Our Mother! Now, Mary has come over the last two centuries and explained what weapons we are to use: Holy Eucharist, the sacraments, Scripture, the Holy Rosary, fasting, etc...It will get very messy, even bloody, but the Era of Peace will come, the Triumph of the Two Hearts is assured. It is wearisome and upsetting, I think, to try to nail down a definitive timetable. It is best to love and live our Faith. Jesus asks us to be like little children, so instead of attempting to view the whole race, perhaps we should just consider the next few steps and look for a signpost. Spiritually speaking, the Warning should be the next significant marker. For the sake of the lost, may it be soon! For me, that is more than enough to handle! :shock: By the way, I've enjoyed your thoughts, questions, and input. Welcome! Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Hello Little Flower, I've been away lately, and in and out of the conversations more than usual, so I am just now reading this thread, and what a great thread it is indeed! Many of these things we have discussed here before under various topic titles, but the forum has grown and to read all the past posts is an almost impossible task for someone just joining us, so we need to go over all this again periodically. Also, new insights from new people bring new perspectives to the old disussions, and frankly, though I have been reading, learning, and debating these issues for about 5 years now, I still do not tire of rehashing them and reading what a new person thinks about it all! And I certainly do not begin to say I understand the book of Revelation any better, really, than I did when I started! But you know, that is the beauty of it, and of the whole Bible really...we never seem to be able to completely explain what is says. That is why it is such an ingenius book, why we never seem to be able to stop reading it, and quoting it, and re-reading it...heck, we think computers are complicated, even a computer still cannot difinitively explain what the Bible says. And good thing, too! Most of us here believe that the Warning is coming soon. Many visionaries have predicted it, and some current ones are indicating that it must be soon. Many of us believe in the apparitions at Garabandal, at Medjugorje, at Knock, at Akita, at Ruanda, and others. Some folks right here on this forum have locutions. All this is what makes this forum so immensely interesting. All that said, this forum follows the doctrines and dogmas of the Church as the fundamental guide first and foremost. If something seems to go against that, we discuss it and try to make a discernment based on it. Some agree, some disagree, but in the end it all must bring peace, not kaos, as Kathleen says. For instance, the messages of Medjugorje may talk about sadness, they may talk about chastisements and sometimes our Mother may give us a little "kick in the pants", but never, never, do the messages threaten us if we choose not to believe in them. They warn us about not following Jesus...but this is in general, this is not ever in reference to specific prophecies made there. Our mother always says to be obedient to the Church. If you feel that a visionary's message is threatening you with punishment if you do not believe in what is being said, then it is not giving you good fruit. Steer clear. Now, I personally do read the Warning Second Coming messages still, but they do not scare me at all, I read them discerningly. I am not throwing them away, but I am also not taking them completely literally. I wonder if they are of God, if perhaps the visionary is embellishing the messages herself, misunderstanding their real meaning in her translation. If so, then there is a problem, she is being influenced by a dark side. Also, I am finding that they often parrot other messages being delivered at the same time, or even seem sometimes parrot discussions being conducted here and on other forums. So again, it makes me wonder if they are telling us anything new, actually, or are just spreading things we already know from other sources. I have not decided for myself yet if the fruits of her website and Facebook page are good or not. If the messages trouble you though, then I definitely agree with Rain and I think you should look for another source of messages to read, ones that bring your soul more joy and peace. For me, they are a curiosity at this point, they are not the "one thing" I feel I should follow, they are just one source of many messages I am taking into consideration. For me, the Medjugorje messages are at the forefront, because they bring me great peace and I have seen and felt their good fruits firsthand. Over my years I have read about all the Protestant intrepretations too, and at different times in my life I have believed different things. I am still on the fence about the 1000 year thing myself, as I do not understand either what Revelation is telling us, really. But goodness, don't beat yourself up for this! Certainly your heart is in the right place, you are searching for truth, you are trying to figure it out, and are using the words of others to help you. Some of these words may lead you down the wrong path for a while. Some of your own thoughts may be closer to the truth than the thoughts of others you read. Remember, God will always forgive you if you believe wrongly because of a lack of understanding - but with right intentions. If it really bothers you, then go to confession and talk about your thoughts there, and if necessary, gain absolution if you feel you did something sinful. But don't feel guilty for trying to understand the truth, or for reading something in order to discern for yourself. I completely believe that God wants us to dig in to these things instead of just blindly following others without understanding why we follow them. I am a scientist inside, and I have always believed that God made us the way we are, curious and questioning and striving to learn and understand the things around us. He wants us to learn and evolve and adapt and survive, to thrive in our world, to "reach for the stars". But not just to "stargaze" as Padraig said. Don't just "see"..."do"! So Little Flower, I think you are doing the right thing by investigating these ideas, even perhaps following something contraversial for a time, until you learn something new and better that makes more sense and produces better fruits within yourself and in your faith. You are just fine, and I think Jesus is smiling at you about your concerns, and is ready to take you to the next step as soon as you are ready to go there. Just like the rest of us.
Thank you for the replies I think I've decided not to think about millennialism anymore very much, because I don't want to end up really believing something that's against the Church's teachings... I'm already concerned that I went too far and committed heresy. I'll just leave millennialism to God I guess. As for the warning, that is a different topic, and talked about in various prophesies, - I think the best we can do is just stay in a state of grace God bless
