Medjugorje

Yes of course.

Though, as someone mentioned it will probably not be a negative/negative

rather a negative/but

compromise.

 

I think it would also be interesting if the CDF provided us with the reasons they disapprove if in fact that is what the decision is. I would like to see what theological errors they found and examples of bad fruit.

 

It will be a real kick in the butt to the big Medugorje web sites, David if this goes pear shaped on them. I can't imagine. Investing a huge chunk of your life in something that gets the thumbs down.

As to the visionaries , the Franciscans themselves , well my goodness.

But my impression of the visionaries themselves is that they have grown hugely in holiness under Mary's Direction so they are kind of bullet proof. But as to the rest, I must pray, poor people. There is pretty well a huge Medugorje industry.

 

I too would expect the everything, including the kitchen sink.

 

I am not the least bit concerned whether the Vatican rules against Medjugorje, as heaven will always have the last say if it is authentic as I believe it is. I hang my hat on the Churches unchanging teachings and the many messages and apparitions of Mary are just icing on the cake for me.

 

I am not a Medjugorje supporter, but it looks like here is the place to collect the articles on it, so here is one I ran across this morning:

http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/ruling-on-medjugorje-near

I have no idea why this particular apparition creates such a schism in the faithful. Honestly it truly is puzzling to me. If someone came on here and said "I don't believe in Fatima", there wouldn't be an outcry even though it has the most support of any apparition in history. If however you say you find problems with Medjugorje "Watch out".

I mean no disrespect to anyone. I know this apparition means a lot to some people, but it is much more important for us all to be obedient to the Church and not say "I will follow the apparitions no matter what". If they are given a negative verdict, God will bless you if you are obedient, but not if you personally overrule the Church. God bless all of those on both sides of this issue, we all want the same thing in the end, the victory of Christ. We just cannot see the whole picture clearly now.

 

It's probably just another "SIGN" of the Times! Schism is everywhere now! Christian Churches .. all sects. Islam in turmoil.... Politics ... USA most politically polarized since 1860 .... race relations in the toilet ... Rich vs Poor, Gay vs Straight, godless vs God Fearing and ... you name it! It's all satan and his useful idiots final assault in the Final??. . Confrontation. All the more reason to concentrate on The Father, Jesus and Holy Ghost!!
The "Schism" on Medjugorje may account for Pope Francis' careful wording when asked about it .... Guidance soon coming? Remember ... and last I heard. The Church, even the approved Apparitions of Mary and the Saints, does not require US to believe any of them ..... they are deemed worthy of belief ..... and The Divine Mercy Message gives me, personally, the most hope for my salvation!!

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

Part of the reason is that an outright negative verdict would create major epistemological problems because of the sheer quantity of testimonies to objective phenomena that prima facie bear all the hallmarks of the supernatural (medically inexplicable healings etc.). If it is decided for some reason that these apparitions were definitely not supernatural in origin, then an explanation is needed either to the effect that the healings were not genuine or, if they were, to say why God would give apparent confirmation of a bogus apparition of precisely the sort normally considered as positive proof in analogous situations. The same would apply to all the solar phenomena for which extensive video evidence exists - if someone wants to label these as demonic, they need to demonstrate the theological basis on which it can be asserted that the Enemy actually has the power to generate such phenomena, which IMHO is easier said than done. It would also be necessary to explain how a negative decision can logically cohere with the Church's approval for another apparition (Itapiranga in Brazil) whose very first message in 1994 implies the authenticity of Medjugorje, a message re-iterated during the phase of the apparitions specifically approved (1994-1998).

 

Hi Peter B,
I have great respect for your extensive knowledge and I would not presume to debate you as I do not possess great skill in that arena. I honestly would be interested to hear your response to the multitude of problems that the other side puts up. To me Medjugorje is like Swiss cheese there are so many holes in it. The greatest "fruit" of them all for me however is the disobedience it has fostered. As far as people having conversions, God will convert people anywhere if they open their hearts to him.

I do not believe the children are charlatans. I believe there are a great many amazing events happening there. I believe the children do see something. I used to be a believer in this apparition when I was younger. I actually have one of the rosaries that turned "gold".

As to why God would let a deception like this take place, only he knows. I would not presume to debate him either . We only know he has allowed a great number deceptions to occur in our times. Sister Lucy said this is a time of great diabolical deception. Even the priesthood has undergone this deception. I don't think the faithful are better than the priests, so why would we be spared. He also has given the devil greater power in these times, so he can fool men more effectively.

 

I don't know much about Medjugorje but it seems that one of the big problems is it's become a "Circus" with flim-flam artists, clowns and pickpockets. The place has become a tourist attraction with tourist $$$$ attracting undesirable elements. The Pope's interview, to me anyway, seems to indicate that the Church is trying to "sift the chaff from the wheat and take what's good"??
As for me! I'm sticking with The Divine Mercy

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

You know this reminds me of the morning of Jesus Resurrection. When the women went to the Tomb early in the morning and found Jesus was gone (risen).

They rushed back to tell Peter and the Apostles, who did not believe them.

They had to have personal proof. And when Jesus did appear to the Apostles, He told them off for not believing the women.

Anyway, we lived through Saint Padre Pio being silenced, and Saint Maria Faustina and Divine Mercy being silenced. God opened the doors to Mercy just in time. And Saint Padre Pio was restored too.

It will all be ok in the end. I think this is a trial for all of us. I think the internet makes it all very heated.

Lets praise Jesus and Mary, and thank them for putting up with us all.

 

We may have been overreacting to what the Vatican is really going to do.

In other words it may all be a damp squib:

http://www.spiritdaily.com/medjpope.htm

 

For me what the pope Francis says implies the negative outcome of Merjugorje phenomen. He is quoted to say:
"For now, bishops are just being given some guidelines.”
"The problem of Medjugorje..."
"...but only some guidelines will be given to bishops on the lines they will take."

Why he chose to say "the problem of Medjugorje"? Why not just "Medjugorje". If the outcome were positive, what guidelines the bishops should be given? Why pope mentioned that at all... Let's see. Only truth matters! My faith is not based on apparitions. It is based on our Risen Lord and the teaching (magisterium) of His Church. God bless U!

 

This is human reasoning. I used to think like that, too. If we listen to the Church we will be safe. Jesus said to His apostles: "Who listens to you, listens to me." This is a good guideline for us all.

 

I agree regarding conversions, as God's greatest desire is for us to come to Him and He will use any stirrings of faith in order for that to occur. So, for example, the fact that conversions have undoubtedly been occurring at San Damiano, for example, is IMHO not in itself evidence of the authenticity of the SD apparitions. Medically inexplicable healings and rosaries turning gold (including yours!!) are however a different category, as these are occurrences involving not only spiritual causation (in which God is involved all the time) but extraordinary alterations to the normal scheme of how physical matter behaves. As such, they imply primary causation on God's part rather than His more usual operation through secondary causes (e.g. the skill of medical doctors) and have traditionally been interpreted as signs in the context of apparitions. A good example is Sr Agnes Sasagawa's healing from deafness in the context of Akita. Of course some folks would argue that the Enemy can also produce the appearance of healings, e.g. by displacing symptoms, as seems to be the case with Reïki, but he cannot and never has been able to counterfeit lasting healing.

As for the question of disobedience, this is a complex issue because i) whether or not given visionaries have been disobedient or not is often a value judgment as to what exactly constitutes disobedience ii) it can be argued that Bishops who are themselves disobedient (and very sadly we have learned that there are plenty of those) forfeit at least a measure of their spiritual authority: an obvious case would be a Bishop involved in sexual abuse who places a gagging order on his victim, invoking 'obedience' to do so. An intentionally sinful order like this would obvious not have to be obeyed iii) logically, whether the Blessed Mother appeared is a question of whether an event occurred or not (it either did or didn't). Disobedience on the part of alleged visionaries certainly damages the credibility of their testimony, but it doesn't resolve the historical question if the disobedience was posterior to the event postulated iv) one of the principal targets when 'disobedience' is discussed is Tomislav Vlasic, who undoubtedly went off the rails (as it seems did Stefania Caterina, a purported seer that he supports), but was not himself one of the apparition visionaries. His case is certainly a sad one, but it does not logically affect the question of the authenticity of the apparitions themselves.

 

I was under the impression it was the Bishop of Mostar who requested the Vatican investigation and intervention because the Medjugorje movement had completely ignored both his directives and those of the national bishops conference. The impugning of the motives of the local bishop has gone on from day one, which served the purposes of the schismatic Franciscans who were using the supposed apparition to maintain control of local parishes against the authority of the local bishops.

I find very few Medjugorje advocates online who have really read and understood the long standing problems in that region which gave rise to this phenomenon. Very few are aware of the mass graves of Serbian Orthodox just on the other side of "Apparition Hill," of Orthodox Christians murdered and cast into cave pits by Croat Catholics during WWII. The history of that region is atrocious and the Franciscans' hands are not clean in those ethnic wars. A number of the original central Franciscan figures who created the Medjugorje phenomenon have subsequently been defrocked and some are now New Age gurus.

There is far far more to Medjugorje than most Medjugorje advocates know or are willing to honestly examine.

 

True Private revelation is inextricably linked to public revelation.

The teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium) are found in the public revelation of the Sacred Deposit of Faith (Tradition & Scripture).

Private revelation heightens the importance of the truth of public revelation at a particular time in history. It invigorates it.

It is because 'man' and indeed the Church has not responded correctly to private revelation (Fatima and the consecration of Russia being one example) that we are in the mess we are in today.

The Church is in a mess, the world is in a mess. Souls are at stake. The Salvation of the world is at stake. Millions of souls otherwise perish (1st secret of Fatima) because so many (especially believers) have refused to take heed of the Fatima messages and convert.

Our Lady hasn't been appearing for the last 200 years to tell us that we are on the right path. Rather, the messages of our Lady clearly state that we are on the wrong path and unless we convert we will be punished and chastised by fire falling from the sky (Akita).

 

Thanks, Brian K. for the occasion of penance today to keep quiet.

 

No, it was taken out of his hands because he was weighing in with his own personal opinions and quenching the truth. Thank God for Pope Benedict. The mass graves and terrible history of the place are not a reason to dismiss the apparitions. It's exactly the situation God would choose to reveal Himself. The grotto at Massabielle was used by Satanists for their rituals before Bernadette's apparitions ( Rene Laurentin). Of course God would send his mother somewhere like that. So what if a number of Franciscans have been discredited ? Jesus chose 12 men and two of them were seriously discredited by the time he'd died. Come on, stop using false arguments and examine the facts. Jesus transformed lives that were "atrocious". He didn't come for the righteous, BrianK.

 

Thankyou to Garabandal and Scolaire Bocht for your input on whether to continue to travel to Medjugorje when everything is paid for even if there's an outright ban.

My biggest problem would be the timing. We can expect to hear the decision on or after 24th when the meeting starts. I travel on the 29th. Because of the word 'guidelines', I agree with those here who think it means a tightening up of how things are done in Medjugorje, less tacit approval by the parish. Not an outright ban.