Medjugorje

Which would ignite the Father's wrath more: 1) letting population controllers and ardent advocates of abortion, speak at a Vatican conference on sustainable development and letting churchmen insert the pro-sodomite agenda into a 2014 Synod document, or 2) churchmen studying conflicting reports about a supposed Marian apparition and making a prudential judgment to the best of their abilities given the widely conflicting reports?

For the life of me I simply cannot comprehend the absurd priorities expressed sometimes on this forum.

 

I'm not so sure that 1) and 2) are so disconnected as all that ... Leaving aside the specific question of Medjugorje, a look at the broad sweep of post-Biblical prophecy over the centuries demonstrates that the gradual collapse of Christian theology (which is surely now arriving at its dénouement) via so-called 'scholarship' would never have happened had more Christians taken private revelation more seriously as a form of God's ongoing guidance and protection of the deposit of faith. You certainly wouldn't have the current aberrations you mention in 1) had academic theologians read the approved mystics with any degree of humility. A tragic example of this is Martin Luther's cavalier dismissal of St Bridget of Sweden ('crazy Bridget') despite the fact that the Church had approved her after a decades-long discernment process: had he been able to countenance the notion that God had indeed been speaking to her (or indeed put two and two together once the Tilma appeared in 1531, suggesting that he might just have made a terrible mistake), he might have been protected from the theologian's perpetual temptation to re-invent the wheel himself... which is just what we're seeing today.

 

In what way is Medjugorje evil, BrianK ? That's quite a claim. Also, this false argument of "disobedience" needs tackling. Pope Benedict removed the case of Medjugorje out of the hands of the Bishop of Mostar, precisely because he was biased against it. Why don't you just wait and see what The Church decides instead of accusing good people of being disobedient Catholics.

 

so what do you think.....shrine status?

 

Medjugorje: the Vatican forbids the prayer meeting with Vicka in Sestola. And 'near the papal pronouncement on the apparitions



The same day that Pope Francis traveled to Sarajevo, the Gazzetta di Modena made the announcement that Cardinal Gerhard Ludwig Müller , Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has banned the public prayer meeting to be held in sestola on June 20, and which also included the presence of the visionary Vicka.

In reality, the decree that prohibits the event is dated February and do not understand the delay with which it was made public, considering that the car had moved the organization for some time and that the subscriptions were already obtained hope to repeat participation of thousands of faithful, as was the case for the meeting last year.

It must be said that this measure is the latest in a series of steps taken for similar cases.

First we must remember that in October 2013, and on behalf of Cardinal Müller, the apostolic nuncio in the United States, Mons. Carlo Maria Viganò, in a letter to Romny Jenkins, secretary general of the Episcopal Conference of the United States, had asked that the US bishops prevented the public meetings with the visionary Ivan Dragicevic.

That directive, which was written in the letter, was in compliance with the Declaration of Zadar on 10 April 1991 in which the bishops of the former Yugoslav Republic had claimed that on the basis of studies that have been performed, you can not say that there were apparitions supernatural revelations. "Hence - he concludes the letter - follows that the clergy and the faithful can not participate in meetings, conferences, or public celebrations in which the credibility of these 'appearances' is taken for granted."

The following year the Bishop of Anagni-Alatri, with a circular of 8 November 2014, banned at the last minute a meeting with Vicka in Fiuggi, citing the same reasons given in the letter of Mgr. Viganò.

Likewise last March was banned another meeting with Ivan , which was to be held in St. Charles, United States, at Lindenwood University.

This time the ban came from Msgr. Robert Carlson, local ordinary, in a note addressed to the priests and deacons of his archdiocese said: "I received a request from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to remind everyone that We should not participate in events that promote the so-called seers of Medjugorje and in particular Mr. Ivan Dragicevic. "

It also has news that the Bishop of Vicenza denies it to a new prayer meeting with Ivan, meeting last year was held August 17 at the Church of Santa Corona. We abbbiamo no way to verify it, but there is a good chance that the information is reliable.

But the news most relevant is that contained in an agency Ansa today on the statements made by the Pope in the back from Sarajevo. Responding to journalists, the Pope announced that by the end of June, probably the last Wednesday, Cardinal Müller will hold a fourth (and perhaps last) session of cardinals and bishops to solve the problem Medjugorje . He added that the decision is imminent and that it will be given prompt notice to the press. "In the meantime - it concluded - is given to the bishops some guidelines on the lines that will take about the phenomena of Medjugorje."

 

Oh dear. I hope this does not turn into another heated debate. Why not just wait and see what the church decides. There is a lot of yes and no components to discern. (A lot!). It is not a matter of pulling a christmas cracker. One must be very-very cautious; respectful; when others souls are deeply involved. I have no-doubt the church will try to make a wise decision. My heart rests with those who make peace and thus souls can breathe truth.

God bless!

 

I doubt it. The Bishop of Mostar has condemned this apparition, and the behavior of the seers, in the most withering terms. His decision has never wavered. The chances of the Vatican overruling a local bishop regarding private revelation are slim to none, especially given that the Bishop of Mostar conducted a thorough and fair examination of the seers and the apparition. I can't imagine Pope Francis giving shrine status to an apparition that has been condemned by the local bishop. Pope Francis takes the Blessed Virgin seriously, so I can't see him approving a hoax at best or a demonic deception at worst.

 

I really don't know. Anything is possible. I have lately considered the possibility that Medjugorje would suffer a ban for a period of time. However, I have peace with whatever decision is made. My faith is not dependent on Medjugorje, although I believe the apparitions are genuine. If the Vatican rules against Medjugorje, so be it. It won't stop me travelling there at the end of this month - everything is booked and paid, I'm not going to waste that.

 

However, if travelling in pilgrimage to Medjugorje is banned by the Vatican, I would obey from then on.

I also get annoyed at being called disobedient especially when people know well that the matter has not been in the hands of the local Bishop for many years, and that the Vatican has made it clear the Bishop is simply expressing his personal opinion.

I can't remember - is it the current Bishop, or the previous one, who doesn't believe in Marian apparitions generally, including Fatima? (a viewpoint he is entitled to as all apparitions are in the realm of private revelation)

 

According to Liam Prendergast, the leader of National Medjugorje Council of Ireland, the Bishop Peric personally told him about his lack of belief in apparitions in general. It happened during a meeting on October 9th 1998 in the episcopal palace in Mostar. This information has been captured in a sworn statement about the meeting, now made public by MaryTV.


Liam Prendergast's signed statement
In the statement, Prendergast tells that he visited the bishop together with Fr. John Chisholm, an Irish priest, who served six years in Medjugorje, was held in high esteem by Medjugorje pilgrims, many of whom were convinced after going to confession to him that he has the gift of reading souls. Fr. Chishom has connections at the top of the Vatican, along with a CV which includes three PhDs.


Fr. John Chisholm
“During the talks,” writes Prendergast, “the Bishop denied any supernatural events occurring in Medjugorje. Fr. Chisholm referred to supernatural events at Lourdes and Fatima but the Bishop did not accept this and said he did not believe in any apparitions. When pressed on the Lourdes apparitions, he stated, ‘I believe what I am required to believe, that is the dogma of the Immaculate Conception that was issued four years before Bernadette’s alleged apparitions.’”


Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar
According to Liam Prendergast, Bishop Peric also said that he wants Medjugorje done away with:

“[Fr. John Chisholm] asked if there was any solution to the Hercegovina case [the war between the Bishop of Mostar and the Franciscans – over parishes, etc.]. The Bishop’s reply was: ‘The solution is that the Franciscans must submit and Medjugorje must be abolished.’ These words are clearly printed on my mind.”

The Bishop also told Prendergast that he has never met any of the Medjugorje visionaries:

“During our interview the Bishop completely discredited the visionaries of Medjugorje. He admitted that he had never met or spoken to any one of the six of them. This was a complete shock to me, to think that he, as the shepherd responsible for the salvation of their souls had never spoken to or tried to counsel them, since he took office five years previously,” Liam Prendergast tells.

“The foregoing facts are all true and quite clear in my recollection,” Prendergast ends his statement.

In his notes of introduction to the statement, MaryTV President and long-time Medjugorje documentarist, Denis Nolan, informs that all of the above is known by the Vatican:

“Several days after their meeting Fr. Chisholm (…) met with a high ranking Cardinal in the Curia, who told him, after he had relayed all that had transpired during that meeting, “Everything you have just told me is already known in Rome!”

http://marytv.tv/news-from-denis/45...g-an-october-9-1998-meeting-with-bishop-peric


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I had read this letter and statement in the past. I found it too disturbing ever to mention in any debate.

All we can do is continue to pray for all concerned.

 

I agree, and I unlike others here believe it will be unfavorable....not because I want that (I had a massive conversion there in 93) but because I think this is how it will play out in the storm.....I think things will unravel everywhere, so why not start at Medjugorje. Like you, my belief does not hinge on any announcement from the Vatican but above all I will be obedient if it is unfavorable. I am an obedient Catholic.

 

Yes, going by Peter B is saying particularly, I think it's obvious that the decision will either be a flat out unfavorable rejection or a kind of waffly holding one. The latter might say that Church authorities are not to give too much prominence to visionaries, on Church property say, but still allow the pilgrimages.

I think if we get a complete formal ban on pilgrimages, as opposed to anything waffly, then I think people should abide by it even if they have booked tickets. Our Lady would be offended and you wouldn't get the graces you otherwise would get I'd say.

Anyway this kind of thing is common for a while at perfectly authentic apparition sites, and for seers like Padre Pio for example. It doesn't follow that Medgugorje is unauthentic, it's perfectly obviously authentic I'd say. In fact my money in on Viscko (spelling!) becoming a saint.

 

Yes it reminds me of the death, burial and Resurrection of Our Lord.

We see this too in the lives of the saints, they get buried by rejection, but up they pop again.

The story of Our Lady of Good Success is a classic example:

 

'I think you should abide by it even if they have booked tickets'.

I think if you have booked tickets you should go even if the Church comes out negative. If I had spent money on going to Medjugorje and booked a room I would still go on a holiday to Medjugorje.

How would our Lady be offended if we went to Medjugorje in a private capacity on holiday?

 

Yes but Garabandal I am only talking about if there was an outright explicit Church ban on pilgrimages. Anything sort of vaguely disapproving I would still go but I wouldn't go against an outright ban.

You will find that Our Lady is very appreciative of the laws of the Church and I definitely think would not like you going on a pilgrimage in those circumstances. You don't want to be playing games with Her either in saying you were actually going for the sun or something!

 

Well, I suppose we will have to wait in patience now that Papa Francis has hung the bait.....we can expect this soon and I don't think it's a coincidence he WAITED to have the announcement made after his return from Bosnia/Herzegovina to avoid the entire tour to be focused on questions surrounding the decision. But I also think he visited there before the announcement for a reason, to show them how much he loves them no matter what the announcement.

 

I keep meaning not to discuss Medurgorje anymore but each time the subject comes up I get stuck in again.

Fool that I am.

(and I can't even spell it right!)

It reminds me of a washing machine, it goes, round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round

 

Padraig, perhaps it wold be prudent to prepare the forum for a possible negative decision. It all depends on exactly what will be said and how it will be said. But if the Church at this time dissaproves of Medjugorje would you still allow us to discuss it, and post the messages etc...? It would be a tough decision I think.

 

I have just seen your posting which lists so well the fruits of Medjugorje in a better way than I've ever seen before so please don't stop speaking of Medjugorje!

Padraig's posting can be read at: http://motheofgod.com/threads/anne-the-lay-apostle-direction-for-our-times.2418/page-4#post-89280
(Unfortunately it's on a thread about 'Anne the lay apostle' who I do not believe is authentic)