Trump & Vance Humiliated Zelensky

Discussion in 'The Spirit of the USA' started by MedjugorjeFan, Feb 28, 2025.

  1. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    Are You sure about bold part ? :D
     
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  2. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Do go on...
     
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  3. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    Ask yourself this: how is it possible that the Ottoman Empire, the largest Muslim state ever in terms of political and military power, which ruled over the Euro-Asian part for around 600 years, had between 25% to 30% Christians during its rule under the sultans, while in the Middle East (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq) there were from 10% to 50% Christians, and in the capital Istanbul, Muslims were only 50%? In Eastern Europe, which they lost in 1912/13 during the Balkan Wars, just before the start of WWI, Christians made up around 70%, while Muslims were mostly Albanians from Kosovo, Macedonia, and Albania.

    How is that possible??
    However, with the arrival of the Young Turks in the 1908 revolution, the sultanate was overthrown, and the "liberals" came to power, bringing changes and carrying out the largest genocide of Christians in centuries, killing over a million and a half Armenians and Greeks...

    I don't know if you remember, but when I shared a picture related to the Second Vatican Council, a conversation between Theodore Herzl (the first president of the Zionist Congress) and Pope Pius X was shown, when Herzl came to ask for support for the creation of the Jewish state in Palestine. We're talking about the year 1904 when a Jew came to seek the Pope’s support, who was still an important political and religious figure, to create a Jewish state in a Muslim land ruled by the sultan??

    Who funded the 1908 revolution? In 1896, Herzl went to the sultan to buy land in Palestine, which would cover around 20% of the Ottoman Empire’s debt at that time when it was in crisis. The sultan refused, and the area was primarily inhabited by Arabs and Christians, although Jewish bankers (Schiff – the financier of the Russian Revolution, Rothschild) had been building Jewish quarters and investing in Palestine for years.

    If you observe the goal of the revolution, it becomes clear. Compare it to Assad, Hussein, Gaddafi... "Evil dictators" were removed by a financed mob for the sake of "enlightened democracy," but this led to massacres and the extermination of minorities. They first broke them economically, then the final blow came militarily. The Young Turks were funded by the British and French( goverment), and Jewish bankers with the goal of weakening the Ottoman Empire. Interestingly, this same Ottoman Empire entered WWI alongside Germany and Austria-Hungary against Britain and France, who had brought the Young Turks to power... So that after the war, the Middle East would fall into the hands of the British.

    Before that, during the Russo-Japanese War of 1905, they helped the Japanese Empire because they wanted to overthrow the Russian Tsar and weaken his power, and then during WWI, they helped destroy empires across Europe, and WWI was actually made for that reason... Personally, I believe that the Fatima apparition, where it was said that more prayers were needed, was a warning that without them, the Empire would collapse on European soil...

    The architect of the Armenian genocide and the informal leader of the Ottoman Empire from 1913-1918 during the genocide was Talaat Pasha. Here’s what Wikipedia says about him:
    "...he worked after hours as a Turkish language teacher in the Alliance Israelite School which served the Jewish community of Adrianople. At the age of 21, Talaat was involved in a love affair with the daughter of the Jewish headmaster for whom he worked."

    So, a person who was a Turkish nationalist and exterminated all minorities was a teacher in a Jewish community, worked for them, and had a Jewish girlfriend?? A bit strange for a radical Muslim and Turkish nationalist... This is reminiscent of ISIS fighters who slaughter Christians but receive medical treatment in Israeli hospitals.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaat_Pasha
    A bit about Kemal Atatürk, the leader of post-war Turkey and reformer. Again from Wikipedia, so there’s no claim that I’m using biased sources...
    "Due to the large Jewish community of Salonica in the Ottoman period, many of his Islamist opponents who were disturbed by his reforms claimed that Atatürk had Jewish Dönme ancestors."
    Who were the Dönme?
    "Donme were a group of Sabbatean crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire who were forced to convert to Islam but retained their Jewish faith and Kabbalistic beliefs in secret. Secret Jew, then, takes on a double meaning of being both secretly Jewish and Jews who act secretively to exert control; their secret religious identity in the first place is compatible with their secretive influence, especially when they cannot be distinguished from ordinary Turkish Muslims who reside everywhere. The Dönme’s manoeuverings were said to have lain at the heart of the Young Turk Revolution and its overthrow of Sultan Abdul Hamid II, the dissolution of the Ottoman religious establishment, and the founding of a secular republic. Pro-sultan, religious Muslim political opponents painted these events as a global Jewish and Freemasonic plot carried out by Turkey's Dönme."
    Take a look at the census and the population percentage in the area where Atatürk and many of the Young Turks came from:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salonica_vilayet
    The number of Christians fell to 269,000, i.e., 0.2% from 4 million, i.e., 20%...
     
  4. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    All of us humans originated from tribes, and each tribe is connected by their customs, roles within the tribe, having a tribal leader, protectors, those who grow food, and so on. Over the years, the tribe strengthens its identity, tradition, history, relationships are solidified, and the number of members grows. The first civilizations, peoples, empires, and kingdoms arose here, leading up to the creation of states in the 19th century.
    Everything that connects a tribe or a people is their immunity, which makes them strong: primarily upbringing, morality, family, blood relations, tradition, culture, history, and homogeneity... The entire human history is, in fact, a struggle of different tribes or peoples for supremacy, which was most often achieved through military means. This is exhausting and demanding because it carries great sacrifices, and the enemy can prepare for defense because the danger is visible. However, this was true up until the mid-20th century for many Western countries. If you look at the situation today, in Europe, there are two tribes.
    These are the Roma and the Jews, who have preserved their customs, laws, norms, identity, faith, and tradition, regardless of the countries they live in. The Roma, who arrived in Europe as early as the 11th century from India, still have their tribal leaders. The laws of the countries they live in do not concern them; they have their own customs and rules and live as they did in the past. Now, imagine a tribe that functions in a similar way, but it is much smarter, more cunning, and better organized. For them, the laws of the state do not apply, nor do they consider themselves members of these peoples.

    They can take the names and surnames of these peoples, they can adopt the faith (Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc.), but they remain one tribe that acts in the interest of its own tribe and the achievement of world power through the eventual takeover of states, weakening the immunity of these states from within, and strengthening their global influence. Throughout history, they have been expelled from various empires and kingdoms over a hundred times, with different faiths, cultures, and separate, unconnected regions. The reason for this is that wherever they went, through control of money, they started changing the culture of life and taking control by occupying all the leading positions in society, helping each other, weakening the basic identity of these societies, assisting in the subjugation of these countries, promoting sexual decadence, undermining the authority of kings, promoting corruption, and immorality...

    When a king or emperor felt threatened, especially the Church, which was attacked, it became too dangerous, and they were expelled because the king had central authority against which they could not resist. However, with the fall of empires and kingdoms, there is no longer a central authority that is hereditary, blood-based, and where the king or emperor treated his people as his property to care for, but there are short-term governors who come to power through elections, and they depend on "sponsors," which are often the media (you know who controls them) and financial resources (you know who finances them). When they establish power over a country, they then shift the financing of their ideology to the taxpayers of that country, so that citizens finance with their own money ideologies that destroy their countries (LGBT organizations, abortions, euthanasia, wars, migration, various social programs, etc.). They take control of culture and education systems, creating future generations, burdening the economy so that parents are separated from their children, and spouses from each other, disrespect for the elderly and parents, weakening the identity of the individual, family, and ultimately the people through liberal reforms in these societies, and so on.

    How do you get rid of central authority (king and emperor) and establish your own? You only need to remove those who pose a threat and label them within society. However, not just them, but also the ideology that is fundamental to their immunity, you must declare it extreme, as well as anything that calls for the protection of the fundamental values of the people you are destroying. This is why we have racism, xenophobia, fascist... You must demonize any resistance from the very beginning. Through migration, you balkanize these countries, change the people and their bloodline, and thus change their history and culture. Take as an example all the communist revolutions that were led. For example, the Russian one—when they came to power, who was the first to be killed? They killed the smartest, the intellectuals and industrialists, the moral part of society (the clergy), as well as the military (generals and all military officials). You kill the moral, the intelligent, and the brave, and the butchers and killers come to power. In this way, they weakened any possible resistance and destroyed the moral fabric of society... And this was repeated from country to country. Remember the communist slogan, "Workers of the world, unite! No nations, no borders..." If you plan to rule the world, the ideal way to conquer countries without resistance is to destroy them from within, and then, through various projects—whether communist or capitalist (UN, EU, NATO...)—you take away their independence and identity until you turn everything into one single mass, dividing them racially, ethnically, and religiously so that there is no possibility of resistance, no morals, and no order... Today, this is easier than ever because the world is financially connected, you have various agencies for creating unrest, and there are associations and media to do the work, influencing people's thoughts...

    Now we come to the state of Israel. You see, when you look at history, it was extremely risky to carry out these activities covertly in other countries, as there was a great possibility of resistance. Therefore, there must be a center where you can 'escape,' and you will see that a large number of their people who worked against Russia, Moldova, France, and the USA often flee to Israel .
    The second reason is that there must be a center from where this one-world state will be governed, which they will rule, and where they believe their Messiah should reign. With God, everything must make sense. Eve’s mission had to be fulfilled by someone, and that was Mary. Adam’s mission had to be fulfilled by someone, and that was fulfilled by Jesus... The mission of the Jews to spread the faith in the one true God had to be continued, and that was done by the Catholic Church through spreading the joyful news of salvation in Christ. A few days ago, a priest commenting on Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus said this: The rich man was blessed by God, which in Jewish culture was wealth, but with it came a mission. Perhaps this rich man was good, he didn't kill, didn't steal, didn't lie, but he didn't fulfill his mission and help the one who asked him for help... Personally, I believe that God gave this people a great blessing to survive in different cultures, nations, and communities, to preserve their faith and identity so that they could spread the joyful news of salvation in Christ and eternal life. However, as they rejected the Logos and Christ, they rejected their mission, but they still have the gift, the blessing from God, they just don't use it for God, but for their own benefit and the achievement of world power. So, in my opinion, what began with Abraham in Israel must eventually end with the Antichrist in Israel. Maybe not now... but everything is leading to the fact that the final confrontation will take place there, and the Israeli people will play a significant role in it, because with God, accounts must always be settled. That sentence from Jesus, 'What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul,' I believe was directly addressed to their religious leaders. God does not abandon His promises, but for a covenant, just like in marriage, both parties are needed—not just one to break the relationship. They broke the relationship, and until they return to the path of righteousness, for which Abraham received great gifts from God, they will continue to wage war against God, and thus against mankind."
     
  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    The above is a most enlightening and informative description of how the world is really running. And it ties in perfectly with the realities on the ground.

    I have to review my opinions of the Turks. I knew of Jewish influence on the Armenian Holocaust, but didn't realise the multifaceted extent of it. It is becoming increasingly clear that Islamic attacks on Christians are sourced in Judaism more than in Islam. Divide and conquer.

    Judaism is, and always has been, at least since they crucified Him, Christ's greatest enemy. Truly, they have no other identifying characteristic.

    Given the amount of harm they have caused in the world since they abandoned Catholicism, one could think the English really are 'the lost tribe of Israel'.
     
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  6. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    It is an excellently woven patchwork which points in a certain direction but still leaves me with some seemingly unanswered questions.

    Alex Jones often gets criticized for not calling out Israel, but his response is grounded in what is written by Orangina above. The state of Israel was created by the cabal. The cabal is the chicken and Israel the egg. Since the cabal came first it stands to reason that the problem we are dealing with is the cabal, not necessarily Israel. Which is also exemplified by the fact that Israelis were propagandized during COVID to take vaccines more than any other nation on the planet. Jews are a people captured by crypto-satanists IMO.

    So while we are talking about crypto-jews there is likely such a thing as a crypto-jew-crypto-satanist. Much like a Russian nesting doll they hide behind many layers. They are the players behind communism and all the other wars of the past century.
     
  7. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Trump's foreign policy is a disaster - bombing civilians in the Yemen, supporting the Zionists in Israel/Gaza and threatening Iran.

    Despite his rhetoric of ending the Ukraine war in 24 hours he hasn't been able to persuade his European allies to get to the negotiating table over Ukraine.

    So disappointing.
     
  8. Steve79

    Steve79 Archangels

    Jeffrey Sachs pointing out the obvious - that Israel is currently running the foreign policy of the US government. They’re running this White House, but no one dares say the word, while LARPING as “MAGA”, as clearly evidenced by the Signal group chat which was published by the Atlantic Magazine.
    As far as foreign policy is concerned, this is turning out as to be a truly pathetic Administration so far…

    6 minute interview about it by Judge with Sachs.
    https://x.com/21WIRE/status/1905194554380218563

    My skepticism is increasing.
     
  9. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Alas, Trump is yet another Zionist puppet. Not as bloodthirsty as the Biden\Blinken\Nuland axis, but leaving very little hope for the Middle East. Given the rise of North African and Middle Eastern Jewry in opposition to the equally genocidal Azkenazi faction within the control of the "Israeli" state, the likelihood of Armageddon in the futile pursuit of Third Temple 'sacrifice' seems a much more likely prospect. Trump, despite his undeniable intelligence, is very much out of his depth in what are profound eschatological matters. In this, he is backed by even more ignorant Christian evangelical heretics, and not a few Catholics, in what seems a blind lemming-like rush towards a high cliff-face. May the Lord God, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us all.
     
  10. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    I was there from the beginning... Everything is like a big circus in which we participate against our will and as if there are scenarios.

    Trump announces long-term bombing of Yemen even though he based his campaign on peace and how he is an anti-war president.

    "They want us to stop so badly… They’ve got to say, ‘No mas.’ But I can only say that the attacks every day, every night… have been very successful beyond our wildest expectations… We’re going to do it for a long time. We can keep it going for a long time," the president said.

    Why are Yemen and the Houthis attacking ships? Because they want Israel to stop attacking Gaza.

    Did they stop attacking when Israel temporarily stopped bombing Gaza on January 19? Yes, so the problem is clearly not with the Houthis.
    What is Israel doing? It is bombing not only Gaza again with a large number of victims, violating the ceasefire, but they have continued attacking Lebanon and Syria? What is the US doing, supplying new weapons to Israel and attacking all those who pose a threat to them.
    The first interview of the new head of the FBI is that Israel will be a priority??

    I still don't see the connection between the US as a country and why bombing Yemen is a priority, American ships have less than 4% of navigation in those waters. Of course, we all know the reason why he does this.

    On the other hand, 80% of the important decisions made by the Trump administration have been blocked by lower courts. So, Trump, as the commander-in-chief of the army, can order the bombing of a country 12,000 kilometers away with numerous civilian casualties, but a lower court can block a ban on transgender people in the army for the same commander-in-chief? This is a scenario that has already been seen in all Western countries where the "right" comes to power. I just don’t know if it’s some kind of play in the background. Every time leftists come to power, they move the moral boundaries far to the left, then the right comes, and everything stagnates at best, so the boundaries are constantly shifting further to the left. Look at Western politicians—most of those who are right-wing today were leftists in the early 2000s by their political views...

    Apart from Orban and maybe a few other names, there is not much difference between leftists and rightists, except that leftists implement all their ideas much faster and more extreme...
     
  11. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    The point I was making earlier was that it doesn't have to be Israel calling the shots and influencing American policy but rather those with an interest in Israel. Just like how the people who created Israel had influence and not necessarily the people who exist in it today. I remember watching a documentary where some influential Jews called Israel their child who they would protect at all costs. It's like there is a Zionist civil war happening.

    The one side wants Ukraine to survive and Russia destroyed at all costs. Along with that the destruction of Israel and the US. The other side wants Israel to survive at all costs and the US strong.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2025
  12. orangina

    orangina Archangels

    This brings us to a moral question. How do you deal with evil without becoming evil?

    There was an article on Zerohedge where an Israeli soldier admitted that they had orders to use Palestinian civilians as shields and to demin various buildings and check if the area was secured so they could enter.

    "They were Palestinian," he said. "We sent them in first to see if the building was clear and check for booby traps…They were trembling and shaking." So apparently common is the practice of using Palestinians in such a manner that it has a name of its own: the "Mosquito Protocol," where Palestinians civilians are equated with the hated insects.

    Below I saw a comment that went like this:

    How do you deal with them without becoming like them??? I don't want to be like them.

    And how do you NOT deal with them without becoming their victim?
     
  13. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    For me, this is one of those points where the intellect ends and faith begins. Jesus could have escaped the cross which was ultimately due to the persecution from the jews but chose not to. We are all influenced by sin and evil realms, so IMO the real boardroom meetings happen in the spiritual realms. A person gets a dark thought or intuition and obviously it is coming from evil realms. With enough people organized under this influence, great wickedness manifests attacking that which is good.

    So there is no guarantee on how not to become a victim physically. Jesus goes into detail in Matthew 10 regarding this.

    I am impressed with a video on the Jesus prayer I have been listening to repeatedly. It's a collection of teachings/experiences from different Orthodox saints regarding the Jesus prayer. Just like our saints in the Catholic church, when one turns themselves over fully to Christ great suffering is inevitable.
     
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  14. Whatever

    Whatever Powers

    I think that a cabal is closer to the truth. There had been an economic recession/depression and the Ottoman and Russian empires were badly affected by it. Communism was gaining a foothold in Russia. Freemasonry was rife in Europe, especially in academia. A look at the origins of the various activist groups in Ottoman Turkey will show the Western European influence. One of the main overseers of the Armenian genocide was educated in the Sorbonne and had practiced medicine in France. His family are believed to have been Donme (Kabbalist Jews who appeared to have converted to Islam). They were from Thessalonica which was at that time a majority Jewish city in Greek Macedonia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Nazım#Personal_life

    Some Armenians were allies of the Young Turks: https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/armenian-genocide/
    The oldest Armenian political party was formed by a group of students in Switzerland. They were straight up Marxist Communists in contact with Engels and Lenin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democrat_Hunchakian_Party
    One of them actually saved Talaat's life in a skirmish they had with the Ottoman forces before WW1.

    There were all sorts of diverse factions operating in both the Ottoman and Turkish empires. Religion was a factor insofar as people's faith was used to stir up nationalist enmity. The Russians were Eastern Orthodox, the Armenians Oriental Orthodox and the Turks were Muslims. What you will find across the board is that many of the activist leaders (Armenian and Turkish) were influenced by the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. I don't think that anyone would deny now the Masonic influence during the Enlightenment. Any internet search will produce plenty of information on links between Masonry (especially Rosicrucianism) and the Kabbala. It looks like Gnosticism to me and its fruits are Masonry and atheistic Communism.

    Erdogan's opposition in Turkey are the successors of Kamal Ataturk. Kamal was a military man who also appears to have been influenced by the Enlightenment's goal of the separation of Church and State, democracy, republicanism, so-called freedom of speech, etxc. He got rid of the Caliphate and made religion subject to the State. The fact that the Turkish alphabet is Latin based is down to advice given to Ataturk by American reformer John Dewey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atatürk#Legacy
    The Kamalist were no more tolerant of freedom than the people they replaced.

    So, is the cabal Jewish? My guess is not all of it but that, whether or not all or none of its members are Jewish, its roots are in Kabbalism. We hear much about the evils in Israel being the fault of religious extremism but Zionism is extreme nationalism rather than religion based. Let's not forget that Spinoza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
    and his relative Uriel deCosta are heroes to some reformed Jews and Zionists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriel_da_Costa
     
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  15. Whatever

    Whatever Powers

    There is a Zionist civil war happening in Israel. I see the usual analysts saying that the leaked transcript of the group chat about the bombing of Yemen was aimed at undermining Trump. I'm not convinced that it wasn't more about saving Netanyahu's bacon in Israel. It's proof for the Israeli public of Netanyahu 's influence in Washington and that replacing him with ultra secular Zionists could weaken that power.
     
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  16. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    Another great post, similar to Orangina's. Details about Europe's history along with that of the middle east I would never likely know. What it seems to me is that this could be organized similar to the hells angels. You have a club on top with a bunch of other clubs below, which allows for plausible deniability. There would also be groups within groups, the nested doll analogy I mentioned earlier. A hypothetical example would be a hells angel who is also a mason. The leaders in sub groups who call the shots would be backed and directed by groups higher in the pyramid. Like how the murder of Seth Rich was done by MS13.

    Many people believe that cabal-zionists created and control the free masons. This would be an example of a sub group being directed from a higher group. Israel could also be a pet project of cabal-zionists, so while it looks like Netanyahu is calling the shots in DC. It could be possible that more powerful cabal-zionists are directing captured politicians in the US, so it looks like it is coming from Netanyahu but isn't.

    This stuff has been going on for millennia as well. In Ezekiel 8 God points it out to Ezekiel. Which could possibly mean the stuff we are dealing with today has its origins in antiquity.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel 8&version=NIV
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2025
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  17. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    Very interesting, especially considering how Israel seems like it is currently at a boiling point politically.
     
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  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    There is so much going on in the background of things we have no idea what is going on often, Intelligence Agencies for instance often blackmail folks. Candace Owens, for whom I have huge, huge respect recently alleges they are blackmailing Robert Kennedy Junior.

    All this behind the scenes stuff, how can any of really know what is going on.

     
  19. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    "Must they also fill the land with violence...", saith The Lord.
     
  20. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I think that the Oriental and North African Jews who have come to challenge the formerly dominant Ashkenazi Jews within Israel hold a religious-based Zionism, which aspires to restore the Temple, something which will bring down the wrath of the Muslim world upon them, if they try and destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque in order to achieve their aim. In this, they have the enthusiastic support of many of the Judeo-Christian heretics of America. I have also read of influential Catholics attending Jewish-sponsored meetings purportedly to discuss 'anti-semitism', but they seem to be inching very perilously toward Dual-Covenantist heresy in these dialogues. They are certainly taking a risk of being complicit with genocide.

    There is now, and for two millenia, only one Sacrifice. The Jews' own Talmud describes the cessation of the effectiveness of the Temple sacrifices for forty years before the Temple itself was destroyed. Recent archaeological opinion is broadly that the alleged remains of the Temple, known as 'the wailing wall' are not from the Temple, at all, but are remains of the fortress built opposite the Temple by, I think it was, Marc Antony. This corresponds with commentary from the time of the destruction of Jerusalem and over the next few centuries, that there was nothing left of the Temple, as prophesied by Our Lord Himself. If the religious Zionists actually believe they can restore the Temple to its former sacrificial function, they will be heading for yet another false messiah type disappointment, another of a very long series; if they haven't triggered an apocalypse first, which seems to be the hope of some of them and of many of the Judeo-Christian heretics.

    The expression 'Judeo-Christian' is a common one and I used to deploy it myself, but I think it should be avoided completely. It is absolutely false, as modern Jews are no longer people of Moses, no longer the descendants of Abraham. They have rejected the faith of Abraham and Moses for the paganistic, gnostic, cabalistic superstitions of the Babylonian-derived Talmud. The pharisees of Our Lord's time were already deeply immersed in this false religion and this explains the great conflict that He had with them. This battle has continued ever since and appears that it might conceivably be coming to a head.

    All of History seems to really be about the development of these events. One can look back at the history of the British Isles since the time of Henry VIII and see the rise in influence of Judaism within Britain, which ultimately led to the foundation of this pseudo-state of 'Israel' and the inevitable circumstances that we now face. But, as all this developed, the Irish clung to the True Faith just long enough to play a hugely disproportionate role in spreading It right around the world. The real sons of Abraham have become as plentiful as the stars in the sky, despite all the efforts of the Jews to judaise and destroy Christianity, as they have done with most of the Protestant sects. It seems to me, most of the efforts of our own ecumenists, in the last century in particular, must be seen in this light, even if unwittingly. Vatican II has to come under severe suspicion, also.
     

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