Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

I'm so worried for the zealous young defenders of the TLM, what this will drive them to if the rumors turn out to be true. If we can hold on, pray, trust, write our bishops...God will come to the rescue if it's His Will that the TLM prevail! Don't we trust Him? We can't jump ship.

I just read the full article about the Dijon bishop driving out the FSSP. Apparently he wanted to concelebrate the Chrism Mass with them during Holy Week but they refused, because they don't do concelebrations. I imagine he was probably humiliated by that, as their bishop. There was a point made in the article that some bishops are worried about two parallel Churches developing independently of each other: the TLM Church and the Novus Ordo Church. The concern is how to get them to come together somehow, to keep unity in the Faith. That's certainly a good point and possibly a problem. I've heard it said from the TLM side too: There cannot be a "reform of the reform"... that there needs to be a full return to pre-Vatican II because there's no way to reunify the new and old Mass crowds. My husband has said, "Let the Church renew itself organically! The new is dying out and the old is growing! It will take care of itself over time." I think maybe that's true but the bishops and pope are trying to find a unifying solution now to what they see as a growing divide and a hardening of lines drawn. The TLM devotees certainly like to take hard lines; we feel very strongly about our Faith and see more in black and white. I know that I personally had thought I might go 50/50 on the TLM and the Novus Ordo (my faithful, conservative childhood parish) for a while, but once we experienced just one Latin Mass, we never went back! I have been wondering for some time now if the growth of the TLM communities is really an exodus of the serious faithful from the Novus Ordo, which means the presence of us traditional faithful, large and fruitful families is being removed from the Novus Ordo parishes... Where does that leave them? That seems harmful for those left behind... My sister, for instance, we used to attend Mass with her every week but she doesn't feel able to follow us to TLM because she can barely get her non-Catholic husband to Mass with her as it is. He feels absolutely opposed to going to a Mass where he can't understand a word of it. He doesn't get the beauty of Latin and the priest facing the altar...as a great many others don't as well. It seems a shame to leave them all behind, but what to do?

It's such a complicated issue. This is a precarious time of change for the Church, and change is never easy.

 

Something we all need to be aware of: Be alert and critical about the way all of this is presented to us, now and in the next several weeks. Is the information being shared in a way that fosters division and anger toward our Church leaders? Does it necessarily need to be stated in such a way? Is there any humility and willingness to take direction, a desire to understand where our bishops and Holy Father are coming from?

 

Padraig,
I’m very confused. You said restricting the TLM is schism-causing devil’s work. Then you said if people don’t obey, they are not Catholic. So then what—you are only Catholic if you go along with this devil’s work? Please explain this. Doesn’t the church teach “the end doesn’t justify the means?” That you can’t do something bad for a good end? To be a Catholic you must support and promote devil's work? Please don’t dismiss my questions as just ‘protestant’ or something. I am trying to understand.

 

Yes, we should obey the Pope. With Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict has clarified that the Traditional Latin Mass was never abrogated, and that it should be celebrated, supported and promulgated.

 

Isn’t there some prophecy or some visionary that says the holy sacrifice of the mass will be stopped? Could this be the beginning of that “sign”

 

Padraig, you have got to be joking! Please be so kind, reconsider your decision!

Brian, with his insight and personal sharing, has been extremely valuable for this forum.

Yes, we owe obedience to the Holy Father. The questions are:

1. Who is the Holy Father?

2. How far does the authority of the Holy Father reach?

These questions deserve a discussion, no they MUST be discussed, especially because many here are very confused.

The Pope question, unfortunately, won't go away. Whom do we obey? It is becoming more and more crucial. Who is the Pope?

And, supposing Mr. Bergoglio is truly the Supreme Pontiff, how far does the authority of the Pope go? Does the Pope have the authority to suppress the Holy Liturgy that all saints have attended?

These two questions are absolutely CATHOLIC. The question who is the Pope is CATHOLIC, a Protestant would not need to care. The question about the holy sacrifice of the Mass, the Eucharist, the Mass of all ages, the Traditional Latin Mass in which heaven is drawn down to earth, is also CATHOLIC.

These questions need to be discussed. Because now is the time where we have to make a decision as to whom to obey and how far the authority of the Supreme Pontiff goes.

Brian has set my mind straight in regard to who the Pope probably is (Pope Francis, with a mental reservation). This was extremely valuable. Brian has also helped me on a personal level, alongside other members of this forum, via private messages in relation to my struggles.

Brian and I have been noticing the confusion, and in some cases hurt, that Jorge Bergoglio has been causing with his teachings. Each in our own way, we have been trying to give people a steer as to where the truth may potentially sit (not that we know, just sharing our views). To help those people, here on this forum, who are suffering from the diabolical disorientation of our times.

In turn, the members of this forum have helped me tremendously with my personal struggles, weaknesses and challenges, in particular around my marriage and work life and with regard to the upcoming vaccination roll-out in this part of the world.

Brian has given many here, and me personally, some sound and thorough direction. In my opinion, he is essential for the discussion and for the personal sharing and prayers and support here, and also as a person, as a man, as a fellow in Christ, who is suffering very much personally at the moment. Brian should be a member of this forum!

I am very sorry about dear Picadillo, I can't say much about Picadillo as I have not been following him much due to time constraints, my apologies. Perhaps his membership should also be favorably reconsidered.

If you wish to curtail Protestantism on this forum, perhaps there would be other areas to begin with, for example pseudo-apparitions and 'messages' that are widely discussed. To clarify, I don't actually mind that, I am quite happy to discuss any form of prophecy as I take a deep interest in that subject. And I enjoy a healthy and respectful discussion here on this wonderful forum, even if we don't always agree.

But that is the point, we can respectfully disagree, we are still Catholics. Precisely because we are asking questions and seeking answers, that is a sign that we on this forum are God-seeking people.

Padraig, I like you personally, have just this Wednesday ordered your book on meeting Mary and learning how to pray (from a website called Lulu), and you will notice how many postings of you I have liked. You do seem to be a fighter, which is probably a good thing by and large. And so is Brian, apparently, and so it becomes a clash with swords and shields. Being a fighter, in most cases, is a good thing. But here, I do hope you will reconsider your decision.

I love this forum and I draw a lot of personal strength and orientation from here. I wish this forum may continue, with healthy and respectful discussions, and hopefully you are not under some kind of pressure.

But it doesn't matter any more, the tribulation is already ON in the world. Apocalypse, persecution, we have to prepare and strengthen ourselves, with the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Rosary.

We keep the members of this forum and their families in our family Rosaries. In Christ.

 

That's a good point. Quite the conundrum we are stuck in. Pray for guidance, especially through the rosary and adoration and frequent reception of the Eucharist and Confession. The Holy Spirit will guide us to Truth but it's not going to be easy as the smoke of satan is thick, even in our Church... "even the elect will be deceived"

 

Prayers for our MOG forum, and for all of our members. May our Holy Mother protect us, and guide us, and keep us together through these troubled times.

 

I was reflecting this evening on how depressing it is to see so few, men especially, stand up and start to say “enough!” and defend our Faith, defend Truth. I had just prayed for God to hearten more of my brothers to engage the battle at hand. And then this just showed up in my email box...no coincidences and he’s spot on:
https://www.markmallett.com/blog/the-place-for-cowards/

 

Milo Yianmopous spoke very movingly in a recent interview about the absolute necessity of (with God's help )turning "broken" men into warrior heroes..

 

WOW, that feels more wonderful to see now than I think it would have in 2013.

 

yep. More will rise, but not until it’s late and they are forced to have to defend their families and themselves. But too many will shrink away as cowards hoping “they” don’t come after them

 

Good advice!!

 

Amen!

 

Exorcists all say that the demons hate Latin as it is one of the spiritual languages and is particularly effective against them. It is no wonder he is attempting to use churchmen as pawns to eliminate it.

Puppet-master and puppets.

 

For our family/forum at MOG!

Please Pray this for EVERYONE …..defeat satan with prayer.

 

Liberation Theology is wrong; but at the same time, Archbishop Romero is a Saint as well like St. Pope John Paul II.

Did Archbishop Romero Embrace Liberation Theology? (aleteia.org)

And the article says "NO"....

Pope St. John Paul II—a great critic of liberation theology—championed Romero’s cause, visited his tomb and declared him “Servant of God”—the first step to canonization. His cause for canonization has not been delayed by his association with liberation theology but because the process usually takes time and because the Vatican continued to monitor the situation in El Salvador—realizing that a rapid canonization might cause further unrest in the country and be seen as validation of liberation theology in the popular mind.

The church always has a preferential option for the poor, but her objection to liberation theology is that it filters the gospel of Jesus Christ through an exclusively Marxist lens. The saving gospel of the Lord is reduced to the class struggle and helping the poor and fomenting social change replaces the saving message of Jesus Christ and his church. In other words, liberation theology replaces the eternal message of salvation with an ideology that seeks only to make this world a better place.
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This is all a complex situation, some of these governments are tyrannical. So, under which would it be better to live? Under an iron-fisted government that is against Communism but treats the people very poor or other forms??? Cuba has been run by a tyrannical Communist Government.

Archbishop Romero and Liberation Theology| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

... However, when we analyze Archbishop Romero’s life and teachings, we find that he was an orthodox bishop who rejected violence and Marxism and who used the Gospels and Catholic social teaching, not liberation theology, as his reference points.

Today’s Latin America is nothing like what it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Recently, tens of millions of Latin Americans have been pulled out of poverty thanks to robust economies, with particular progress being made in Chile, Peru, Colombia and Brazil. In the 1970s and 1980s, however, most of the region was ruled by right-wing military dictatorships, and economic inequality plagued the region.

It was in this milieu that liberation theology, a term coined by Dominican friar and theologian Gustavo Gutierrez, developed. Although Gutierrez was not condemned by the Vatican, many liberation theologians he inspired were. In 1984 and 1986, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — then headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XVI — published two instructions on the new theology.
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In my own words, I think Saint John Paul II and Saint Oscar Romero had a different view of things. St. JP II came from behind the Iron Curtain, he saw the evils and oppression of Communism. He had a difficult problem understanding what was going on in Central America.

 

I think this is a beautiful Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered by the Holy Father Pope Benedict in 2010. Tu es Petrus. Unfortunately, the one who should speak has fallen silent (quote from Our Lady of Good Success).

 

We pray this prayer to St. Michael the Archangel almost every night, right after the Rosary, if we can get in a family Rosary. On other days, when I travel, I often pray the Rosary by myself. I don't always make it. But now I am determined, after struggling to pray a full daily Rosary for 11 years, since my baptism.

I am determined because I realise that now we are in the final battle. Sr. Luica dos Santos of Fatima said the devil is in the mood to engage in the final, decisive battle. It will be against the family, against the holy sacraments, against purity. This must be it, the final battle, bringing about the triumph of the Immaculate Heart or enslavement of mankind. THEY are going all in, now they want to suppress the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and they want to vaccinate all people.

There is nothing more to lose, this must be the apocalypse. I said that to my mum yesterday and she said she will also try to pray the Rosary daily now.

Remember, the Lord has given special efficacy to the Holy Rosary in those last days (quote by Sr. Lucia dos Santos). There is no problem, no matter how big, that cannot be resolved by the Holy Rosary (Sr. Lucia).

Pray very much the prayers of the Holy Rosary (Our Lady of Akita). Pray the Rosary daily (Our Lady of Fatima). We offer our family Rosaries for many intentions, including all members of this forum and their families, in particular their family members who are spiritually in trouble.

The prayer you have quoted, to St. Michael the Archangel, was composed by Pope Leo XIII. after he had a locution overhearing Our Good Lord conversing with satan. The devil demanded 100 years to deceive more people, and Our Good Lord granted it. When will the 100 years end?

Pope Leo XIII. ORDERED the St. Michael prayer to be said after each Low Mass. The Novus Ordo rite has gotten rid of this prayer. How dare they oppose the explicit instructions of the Holy Father and change the liturgy to a new order. How dare now they want to entirely suppress the Mass of all ages.

The St. Michael prayer you quoted and the fact that it was suppressed by the Novus Ordo rite was what prompted me to start attending the Traditional Latin Mass, as early as 2011. But I didn't initially like the Latin Mass, I preferred Novus Ordo. As Padraig said, the Latin Mass is an acquired taste.

Now I love the Traditional Latin Mass. We must defend it. We have to stand up against heresy. We can do this primarily with our prayers, especially the Rosary.

Remember heaven is drawn down to earth at the Mass. Padre Pio said, the sun might go out and it would be a lesser problem than the Holy Mass to cease. Saint Padre Pio was a Traditional Latin Mass priest, he did not like the Novus Ordo. We have to defend the Mass of all ages.

Saint John Paul II was in Fulda in 1980 and speaking with a group of German Catholics, when asked about the Third Secret of Fatima (some say this Secret relates to apostasy in the Church, coming from the very top). He pulled out his Rosary, held it up and said: The Rosary is the remedy against this evil.

We are in the final battle, it is primarily a spiritual battle. Let us pray the Rosary daily!

 

We'll be easy prey to the antichrist if we remain divided. I do believe that our protestant and orthodox brothers and sisters will stand with us against the antichrist. Let us just agree to disagree. A bigger battle awaits.