I am a new commenter here. I came across this site while trying to discern the messages on "The Warning Second Coming". I am very concerned about them. Many Catholics I know are following these closely and I wondered whether anyone knew if there has been any comment from the Church on them ? In general, I find the messages are generating fear and anziety and in some instances, they even appear to contradict the Bible and Church Teaching. I know it is important to test the spirit as St Paul says. I am quite close to saying "these messages and warnings are false". Does anyone have any light to shed on them ?
Welcome, Bella! If you read through this thread you will see many helpful insights. That might be a good place to start. I have not heard of any people in my area that are interested. What circle of acquaintances seem to be latching on to these messages? Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
I did receive a communication from 'Maria' but since she wants it to remain confidential I will honour this as I would honour any communication which I receive in confidence. However if I was taken to court for things that are written on the forum I have no money to hire laywers to defend myself, unlike others. ..and this would be difficult if I was sued say for permitting slander or defamation of character. As I have no real money to be taken from me by courts (which tend to be increasingly anti religious] having to pay compesnation money would be moot. However the courts would probably order me to close this site and perhaps stop me from using the net for blogging or forums like this. Jesus said we should be innocent as doves and as wily a serpent , so I think it would be a huge pity if the courts closed this forum so early in the Tribulation. No court of course could close this if we stuck simply to considering if messages are true or not ; but they could close it if it appears specific personal attacks are made on certain individuals are being made. As I say I have no money to defend this forum if it is taken to court so apart from charity I ask for prudence in comments not about these messages; but rather about the person who is making them. I think this forum is doing good things I wouldn't like to see it stopped. That's why I closed this thread in the first place, Reopening it is a risk but one worth taking, however it is a risk, please exercise care; concentrate on the messages not the individual.
another concern I have with the plenerary indulgence (besides no confession required) is if it can be said at any time and as many time per year as one wants. Even the divine mercy indulgence is only good one time per year. If the seer states that this special plenerary indulgence is available as many times as an individual wants...I can't believe it would be an authentic indulgence. That would be like giving someone free license to sin gravely...then be forgiven (perhaps purgatory time too) at any time...like on a monthly basis...that just invites people to gravely sin, thinking there are no real ramifications. That is very dangerous indeed.
My thoughts on the 'Warning Second Coming' is that it is a deception of the devil, probably with the devils anticipated knowledge of what is coming and he is trying to usurp or gain some control over these future events. Some of the places where the messages go wrong are errors in favor of the philosophy of 'relativism' . No judging, everyone is equal etc I dont remember specifics but they are in there. Other errors are pointed out in this thread and another thread that exists with a similar title but is 24 pages or so long(very long): http://motherofgod.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2218 It certainly is the most knowledgeable and impressive of popular Catholic eschatology as it relates to our time. However, it does lean heavily on Garabandal or at least it leans heavily to impress those who are familiar of Garabandal. However, Garabandal doesnt have to be true, and it may be in the end just another deception of the devil that was laid earlier to aid this current deception. I am in favor of Garabandal and thus initially was very impressed with these messages despite a peppering of brow raisers. However, these brow raisers have been too many. A brow raiser in itself is not a true indicators of falsity but number and severity can indicate falsity, Sr. Faustinas Diary contains a very huge brow raiser as an example. There are far too many brow raisers in 'Warning Second Coming' however. Further the messages actually predict the warning would occur in 2011(this is beyond a brow raiser: failed prediction), I read this! From what I understand the message of the warning occurring in 2011 has been edited or scrubbed from the site. I still have the original pdf file of Book 1 where it is highly likely contained, but not all current messages were in Book I when it was first out there. Additonally other predictions provided as proof of the validity of the messages failed. 2 or 3 weather occurences predicted for France and Turkey? in Summer 2011 , never occurred(Failed prediction). I dont know the level of scrubbing or editing on that site, but I wouldnt be surprised if these were edited or scrubbed also. Other errors include the 'personhood of Christ'. One message said that Jesus was feeling 'despair'. Every seminary student, priest and Bishop should know the word 'despair' as a red flag for the personhood of Jesus as taught by St. Thomas Acquinas. Jesus could not 'despair' nor would he use the word 'despair' to indicate his feeling as it is the loss of all hope. The loss of all hope and despair is what Judas felt when he killed himself. Jesus had the beautific vision and although he shared many emotions of the human nature, despair, faith, loss of hope was not amongst them. The actual explanation as to what Jesus could and could not feel is too deep for me to type out adequately though. I asked a gifted mystic about the messages that she spoke in a prayer group, she said that she hears the words or ideas, and tries to formulate words to come out of her mouth, but that the word choices that come out are better than what she is trying to do herself. Jesus could not despair! Additionally, through Catholic prayer groups alot of things are happening right now to prepare select people for what is coming. Most of what the devil is saying in these messages as pertains prayer groups is true or has the ring of truth. The devil is aware and is using his knowledge through 'The Warning Second Coming'. The devil is very aware of what God is preparing and doing right now and is perverting that knowledge to his own ends.
Padraig, I don't know the laws in Ireland, but it sure seems like a very big stretch, especially in the light of today's anti-religous climate there and everywhere, that anyone could be sued for slandering a person who is claiming to be receiving messages from God on a daily basis and is publicly publishing them to the world as they occur...unless the Church officially declares the messages to be from God, which of course we all know would take many years and even then I don't think the legal system would touch it. Unfortunately, our current laws do not allow for the defense of the character of a self-proclaimed prophet or visionary. If it did, then the seers at Medjugorje probably could have cleaned up big by now, as well as the seers from Garabandal, or the three Patricks, and so on. Ron Conte's "list" would have been shut down by now. In fact, laws have never protected religious prophets or visionaries, or their supporters. If they did, well then all the persecutions would not have occurred, and Jesus Himself would not have been crucified. It would be very sad indeed if someone in support of Maria would go to that length to threaten anyone here, or anywhere else on the internet with a lawsuit. I guess if they can't delete peoples' opinions, someone may try to scare people with that kind of threat. It seems a very desperate and self-centered act to me. I would pray that nobody who is close to any visionary would be led by the evil one down such a desperate path. Besides, I am quite sure a lawyer would have a loud chuckle over it. That would be a big business for lawyers if it could actually happen. Even if it was not in defense of a non-provable religious experience, if just comments made by website members could be used that way, My GOSH, imagine what could be done with the tweets on twitter! Yikes! That said though, I do still agree with keeping the conversation to the messages themselves by all means.
Would a Christian- a true Christian- seek money for defamation of character? If you sue then your reward is monetary. If you suck it up and pray, your reward is in heaven. I would think most Catholics with a really strong faith such as a prophet- would know that to seek money for such a thing is not an act of faith. Its just more evidence of a week character and lack of true faith. But of course, no one is really talking about anyone specific here. We wouldn't want to get sued. LOL I am very interested in what Potatosack was saying about indulgenses! I say an Our Father every night, which is a partial-indulgience I think, in hopes of forgiveness for the little things I've done during the day. Did I learn that practice from Sr. Faustina? I don't recall. I thought it was only for the little venial sins and did not apply to mortal sins. ? Kath
The comments and thoughts here are helpful. (My knowledge of media law is that you can't defame someone who chooses to remain anonymous. You can only defame or slander a named person.) A message has appeared today which seems to be possibly the most worrying yet. It is very specific, mentioning countries by name and their fate. I am increasingly concerned about the nature of these messages and where they are coming from. They seem rooted in fear and control. Not good in my opinion. (In media terms, this comes under the banner of "Fair comment" and is no way libellous. YOu have to go a very long way indeed to incur a law-suit. I have read through all the comments here on this topic so far and no-one even gets close to libelling anyone, so quite where that threat may have come from is interesting too.) I think I would like Maria Divine Mercy to unmask herself.
Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. People, we are there! We have exhausted this. We are at the end and we have to let it go. Padraig closed the thread, for heaven's sake, what else do we need? Let it go. Go and pray. Take your lives back. That's what's going to help us any way, not speculating about this woman and the supposed ( valid or not) locutions she's receiving. If we spent, each individual, as much time in prayer discerning this subject as we do debating it...it would be a mute point...and we would regain our peace. Go and pour as much time over Our Ladies messages from Medjugore, you'll gain such freedom. Peace, I wish you peace.
Lee, I understand and agree WE have been over this, but every day there are new people who come here asking these questions again. I think we have an obligation to try to address their questions, to try to help them figure it out for themselves too. And since several new messages are posted every week, the topics are not the same. They change, so we cannot just refer them to old comments on old threads. That is why Padraig reopened the thread. There are so many who daily discover her messages, and then our forum too. I am afraid that until something drastic happens with the messages, the questions will keep being asked. As long as she keeps in touch in some way with this forum, as she seems to be doing, we will still be in some way obliged to address the grave errors and red flags. That is my opinion. Lee, we should constantly redirect them to Medjugorje and Garabandal though, that we have not been doing so much. so I REALLY agree with that statement. Peace peace peace.
Why not? These are not new questions, they are the same old questions and it's all been said before. Enough is enough. The information is all there. Let it die. It's as though we dress the wound and then open it again so we can "redress" the wound. That's nuts. Maybe use a PM to address, like "this has been found to be a false visionary, thread is closed". Seems simple enough to me. Blessed Mother has told us what to do, live the 5 stones.
I've been trying to stay out of the recent meanderings of the last 4-5 posts. But Patrick?/Padraig has been more or less 'lassez faire' on the topic except to state that slander and lawsuits are his fear. With that I am happy to stay on the topic and off the person, and further will stay away from the last 4-5 posts here that meander and are off topic to some degree, others more others less, now to include my own. Thanks Padraig. I'll be commenting further in this thread as 'The Waring Second Coming' messages develop. If this goes on long enough, TWSC , will have more messages than Medjugorje and in some respect is fiercely competing for it in the 'daily prolific' category, new prayer category, crusade category and others. I forgot to add, that one of the brilliant ways to discern God or the Deciever in spiritual messages is to learn from others. To my knowledge, I am not aware of any books written on this. I learned many years ago through what others had to offer in the way of analysis. This ongoing analysis of TWSC is to great avail in that it both teaches others that it is a deception and teaches or shows the methodology that creates the analysis. Which can both be a learning exp. and an inoculation towards other similar deceptions.
Read the Master: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/appdisce/smasters.html St. John of the Cross on visions and visionaries This is what St. John of the Cross, the acknowledged spiritual master in these matters, has to say about the dangers which visionaries are open to in his Dark Night of the Soul (2.2:3). Although he is essentially talking about "imaginative" visions, these points also broadly apply to "exterior" visions. "... the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality." Speaking of visions in general, and in particular of the danger of desiring them, he writes in The Ascent of Mount Carmel (2.11:8,12): 8. "It is always well, then, that the soul should reject these things, and close its eyes to them, whencesoever they come. For, unless it does so, it will prepare the way for those things that come from the devil, and will give him such influence that, not only will his visions come in place of God's, but his visions will begin to increase, and those of God to cease, in such manner that the devil will have all the power and God will have none. So it has happened to many incautious and ignorant souls, who rely on these things to such an extent that many of them have found it hard to return to God in purity of faith; and many have been unable to return, so securely has the devil rooted himself in them; for which reason it is well to resist and reject them all. For, by the rejection of evil visions, the errors of the devil are avoided, and by the rejection of good visions no hindrance is offered to faith and the spirit harvests the fruit of them." 12. "It is clear, then, that these sensual apprehensions and visions cannot be a means to union, since they bear no proportion to God; and this was one of the reasons why Christ desired that the Magdalene and Saint Thomas should not touch Him. And so the devil rejoices greatly when a soul desires to receive revelations, and when he sees it inclined to them, for he has then a great occasion and opportunity to insinuate errors and, in so far as he is able, to derogate from faith; for, as I have said, he renders the soul that desires them very gross, and at times even leads it into many temptations and unseemly ways." St. Teresa of Avila St. Teresa of Avila makes these comments about those with a tendency to believe that they have received revelations: "Not three or four only, but a large number of people have spoken to me on the subject, and therefore I know by experience that there are souls which, either because they possess vivid imaginations or active minds, are so wrapped up in their own ideas as to feel certain that they see whatever their fancy imagines. If they had ever beheld a genuine vision, they would recognise the deception at once. They themselves fabricate, piece by piece, what they fancy they see: - no after effects are produced on the mind, which is left less moved to devotion than by the sight of a sacred picture (Interior Castle, Sixth Mansion, ch. ix, 6).
Well put, RB2. I, though flying off on tangents that I will try not to do again, agree with you. Sometimes I use way too many words. Speaking of too many words, Padraig, the post above from St. John of the Cross leaves me unsettled. I can take any current visionary, the visionaries of Medjugorje, the visionaries of Garabandal, certain people I have spoken to, even myself when I ask God to please show me the way...give me a sign, speak to me, etc. and his words above apply. That is why we are all so confused and why we want to keep hashing all of it out, I think. We so want to believe in something tangable, we want to "know" that God is still speaking with us here on earth. After all that is said, and as we all try in our own feeble ways to discern all the messages coming at us, at the end of the day, the one thing we MUST remember, I think...the one thought that has been repeated over and over again, and that the Church also tells us, is stated by St. John, "For, by the rejection of evil visions, the errors of the devil are avoided, and by the rejection of good visions no hindrance is offered to faith and the spirit harvests the fruit of them." Now, I do not want to reject all visions I hear about, I want to believe in some of them, so I guess I do not follow this entirely. But the important point made is that in rejecting you are not hindering your faith, you are not renouncing God by rejecting them. That last part is very confounding. It is almost a contradiction, so very hard to grasp. How can you harvest the fruit of something which you reject? Here, is where we need help. Padraig and others here have pointed this out time and again though. If a message threatens, if it tells you that "if you do not believe this then you will be lost forever" or anything remotely like this statement, then according to this rule it is not from God. Right?
1 Thessalonians 5:20 .................do not treat prophecies with contempt. I think its a question of balance of on the one hand not rejecting al prophecy, all visions, locutions, dreans whatever as false and on the other hand not being gullible to false prophecy. 2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. I suppose its not too different from the stranger, the salesman who comes to our front door and tries to sell us stuff. We give him a hearing, listen him out and then reach a conclusion . Human nature being what it is sometimes we get taken in a little sometimes maybe we shut the door in the face of the guy who is coming to do us a favour. However it would be nice to think as time goes on prayerful discernment would make us a little less gullible and a little more wise. It has to be said though that with the dawn of the internet there is just a huge amount of slick shysters out there. Here and there though a few real jewels. Everyone has there own strategies for dealing with this . Some Catholics for instance simply will listen to no prophetic utteracnes that have not been approved by the Church. Others like me like to open the front of their hearts and rattle away and listen and prayerfully discern. We are all different I suppose and each of us have our own ways of managing the knock at the front door. I think a lot of common sense and life experience comes into all this.
Kathleen wrote, "I am very interested in what Potatosack was saying about indulgenses! I say an Our Father every night, which is a partial-indulgience I think, in hopes of forgiveness for the little things I've done during the day. Did I learn that practice from Sr. Faustina? I don't recall. I thought it was only for the little venial sins and did not apply to mortal sins." A partial indulgence is what it says, partial. Venial sin, mortal sin, the remission granted will vary. A Plenary indulgence, however, wipes you CLEAN of the reparations in purgatory you would otherwise suffer for your past sins up to that exact moment in your life. If done properly, the Church teaches us that all your reparations for past sins are removed. This is a really big deal! However, all the plenary indulgences defined by the church always contain going to confession, receiving the Eucharist, and praying for the intentions of the Pope as part of it. You must be in a state of grace at some point during the works. Last year, when I did the Divine Mercy Novena for a Plenary indulgence, I clarified my understanding of all this with our Priest. Also in August, I did the Franciscan Plenary Portiuncula Indulgence. Partial indulgences are a little gray, it is in God's hands what they take away. The Church has some rules, but it is way too involved to list here. If you don't follow through entirely with the requirements of a Plenary indulgence, then they say a partial indulgence is granted. You may ask for the indulgence for yourself or for a deceased person. Sincere prayer of any kind for ourselves or our departed could result in a partial indulgence either for you or for who you pray for. That is why praying for those who have died help them get out of purgatory. Offering a Mass for someone is a very strong form of a partial indulgence for them. Here is a definition I found for those who are confused between a partial indulgence and a Plenary indulgence: A Plenary Indulgence is an indulgence remitting in full the temporal punishment incurred by a sinner. An indulgence may be plenary or partial, according as it remits all or only part of the temporal punishment that at that moment is due for sin. To gain a plenary indulgence, a person must exclude all attachment to sin of any kind, even venial sin, must perform the work or say the prayer(s) for which the indulgence is granted, and must also fulfil the three conditions of sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and praying for the intentions of the Pope (unless it is granted at the moment of death with an apostolic blessing, when all three conditions cannot be fulfilled). The minimum condition for gaining a partial indulgence is to be contrite in heart: on this condition, a believer who performs the work or recites the prayer in question is granted, through the Church, remission of temporal punishment of the same worth as is obtained by the person's own action. (Remission for temporal punishment by way of indulgences is granted by the Church in the exercise of the power of the keys.) Here is a very good explanation given by EWTN: http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/general_conditions.htm ...and if you really want some heavy reading on the subject, check this out: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm In answer to Potatosack's concern, the Church says that a Plenary Indulgence can be granted once a day. Most are too involved for that to occur though. Many Plenary indulgences are built around some kind of yearly occurrance, but not all. And yes, in the past the use of Indulgences has been abused. But like everything else, at the end of the day you will have to answer to God so if you are not sincere in your practices, then you are not going to receive it, just like if you do not make a good confession. You may fool a priest, but you will never fool God. You are a fool to think otherwise.
I always thought that the Plenary indulgence was applied to a soul in Puragatory....not to the living
CCC1478 explains how the treasury of merits is open to the living via indulgences. I should note that we can obtain a partial or a plenary indulgence for ourselves as individuals, but not for another living person. CCC1479, however, explains that we can also obtain an indulgence for a soul in purgatory. I encourage all of you to pursue a plenary indulgence for yourselves at least once a year. What a marvelous gift we have available to us through Christ and the Communion od Saints. Alleluia! Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
That's correct, Momscalling. What I have to remind myself in all this are the five stones of which Lee reminded us. That's really the essence in all of Our Lady's apparitions: Return to God and live the essentials so that we may be saved and bear fruitful witness to others. Bingo! Now often Our Lady also warns her children collectively that grave consequences shall come if we don't repent. Such is the love of a Mother! So what do I start thinking about? Timetables! :roll: JoeJerk loves that because getting me to be distracted by competing claims and timetables gets my mind off the essentials. Of course I'm concerned about loved ones and friends who are clueless, and so I want to play the role of watchman. But all satan wants is for me to be distracted! :twisted: So, thank you, Lee, for calling me back to basics! Repent and believe the Good News! Thank God it's Lent! Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
The latest message is one line after another threatening those who do not believe the messages...there they go again rebutting what we are discussing here. Back to indulgences...I was also unclear about them, that is why I asked very specific questions to my priest last year so I was absolutely certain what I was reading and how I was interepting it was correct. First, that I CAN ASK FOR MY REPARATIONS TO ALL BE REMOVED by performing a Plenary indulgence to the letter! THIS IS HUGE, as I have some pretty grave sins in my past that do continue to trouble me, even after being confessed. These plenary indulgences give you very great relief, in addition to the relief felt when the sins themselves are confessed. Now I also know that, for instance, when my father dies I can offer a plenary indulgence for him by performing one in his name. God in his great mercy is amazing! I can see how these could be abused by those who do not really understand their purpose. But for the rest of us, these are a very great gift, and I agree Mario, we should try to perform one at least once a year. The Divine Mercy one is perfect to start with and not difficult at all. Neither is the Portiuncula Indulgence...not hard to do at all either. I am sure there are many others too. As for partial Indulgences, they are plentiful. Use them when you feel you need to for yourself, and then use them for your deceased loved ones! There are those who say that offering these sacrifices in the form of indulgences for others is an act of selflessness and humility, and to you also receive God's mercy even though you offer it for another soul. Like all great mysteries of God, it is really hard to get our tiny brains around...we need to have faith that they do what the Church says they do. If we believe then the graces can flow into us and we can feel the results inside of us. I just found this site...wow... http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/indulge/plenary.htm
