The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    It’s THE POPE who is supporting schism, NOT Faithful Catholics. Stop confusing people.
     
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  2. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I am sorry Brian, you know I love you like a brother, but you are far exceeding the authority you have. I am not confusing anyone. Are you seriously stating that I am trying to confuse people by encouraging them not to leave the Church?

    You stated "Just because it’s lead by a heretical pope, it is no less a schism and we are not obligated to follow or obey a pope in schism."

    This may be your private opinion, but no one in the hierarchy has made this charge, much less a council, which is what would be needed for it. You would be on your own and that is dangerous ground to be upon. We as Catholics are not allowed to make personal decisions about whether a Pope is a heretic or not and whether or not he has authority over us. That smacks of Protestantism.

    I understand how you feel, but you are in error.
     
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  3. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I put nothing in the basket for the second collection at this morning's Mass. That's the first time in my adult life I have given nothing to a Church collection. The collection was for what used to be the Catholic Marriage advisory service. One of the Scripture readings was about Noah and God setting the bow in the sky as a sign of His covenant that He would never again destroy all flesh with water. I don't think it any coincidence that today was the day chosen for that collection. The homily was replaced by a letter from the Archbishop singing the praises of the service which, according to him, is about helping people with their "relationships". I think that marriage and engaged couples might have had a mention but mainly it was all about how much the service is about various types of relationships.

    I was ready to dig deep until the priest read out the Archbishop's letter. Since the fornication, adultery and sodomy lobbies appear to be calling the tune, they should have no trouble paying the piper. I might have no say about Church teaching being glossed over or undermined but I get to choose what I'm willing to pay for.
     
  4. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    From what I have read, the underground Church won't be going into schism. The Bishop whose letter Cardinal Zen gave to the Pope has said as much. As far as I know, he said something about going back to the farm. He's an elderly man and had been asking Rome to appoint a replacement from among the faithful clergy but Rome had ignored the request. The faithful he had been shepherding will likely disperse with some joining the Communist/Vatican Church, some joining other underground Catholic-like churches and others joining Protestant house churches which have also been banned. The Vatican was worried that the Protestants were gaining ground so appear to have seen the alliance with the Chinese Government as a means of keeping a high profile in China. The big money is with the State sponsored Church and we all know that money talks in the poor church for the poor.
     
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  5. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    To his own credit, Scicluna has proved very effective in abuse cases, he uncovered Marcial Maciel
     
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  6. CrewDog

    CrewDog Archangels

    Schism is not something to "support" but it is something to be recognized! I believe that the Church has been in a slow Schism for 50 years. The Usual Suspects hijacked Vatican II and the results are quite visible and no longer in doubt.
    It's time to choose, Gang!! Sheep or Goat!!?? Call a Spade a Spade and realize that you are plumb out of "Benefit of Doubt Cards"!!
    We were told that time would come just as it's come in past times. It might not be The Big One but it's Evil this Way Comes here and NOW. Not just in the Church but in secular USA/EU Society. I'm thinking ... have been thinking for some time ... that something BIG has got to give. I'm surprised that we have bumbled along this far.

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     
  7. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Stay firm in your faith. Pray, trust and don't let either the problems in the world or the church sway you to jump ship. We are still in the early period of the tribulation that where must suffer with Christ in his passion. It will get much much worse before the Warning comes. Pray for the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and priests who have lost their faith and suffer with the church for them.

    Our pastor today in his homily went off on the shootings and blamed politicians and everyone one else, but his own sins and ours. Yet, Jesus in the Gospel right before his homily showed us the way is through prayer and fasting when he was tempted by the devil for 40 days and nights. Everyone wants to blame others for the state of the world and the church. Lent is a time when we need to look deep inward and do our part and "make up in our own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ" [Colossians 1:24]
     
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  8. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

  9. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    This rich devotional Litany of intercession for the Roman Pontiff was composed by a Benedictine monk of Silverstream Priory. The litany invokes each of the beatified and canonised Popes in the history of the Church and includes, for each one, a phrase that alludes to a characteristic grace of his pontificate. Designed for daily use, the litany is divided up according to days of the week, with repeated opening and closing sections.

    Prayer was made without ceasing by the Church unto God for Peter. — Acts 12

    A Christian who does not pray for the pope is like a child who does not pray for his father.” — St Clement Mary Hofbauer

    Copies of the Litany are available only in quantities of 10, 25, 50, and 100. For quantities over 100, please contact Silverstream Priory here.
     
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  10. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Will we hear an apology from Pope Francis regarding his accusation of calumny? Will he apologise for his grave error in appointing Barros and remove him?

    I fear this is all a muddying of the waters in order to take the heat off Pope Francis disastrous policies and statements, but hopefully I am wrong. Scicluna has a good record, to be fair to him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
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  11. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Terrible as the betrayal of Chinese Catholics is, it is a political move, rather than a doctrinal decision. It might, of course, have catastrophic consequences, perhaps ceding millions of souls to the Protestant Churches. However, it can at least be reversed. I think we will just have to suck this one up, if precedent and tradition is to be our guide.

    The notion that the Vatican is gradually moving into schism is an astute one. Most of us, under these circumstances are quite powerless, no less so than the poor Chinese. Perhaps the best that the Chinese, and gradually ourselves, can do is remain quietly and stubbornly adherent to the traditional beliefs as we face into isolation and oppression, pray and trust in Christ to ultimately sort it out, and be prepared to testify faithfully if the gun is either figuratively or literally put to our heads.

    The David Warren motto is appropriate: "I don't care what they do in Rome, I'm staying Catholic".
     
  12. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I think it is worth copying here again the recent words of Bishop Giuseppe Wei Jingyi :

    With his community, Wei will follow the Pope and the Holy See, “regardless of how relations between China and the Vatican will end”. And from now on, he invites all the “friends” from Hong Kong, Macao, Taiwan and other places around the world to set aside the “pretense to speak in our place, to speak on behalf of the underground Church”, because “in the current reality of the People’s Republic of China, no one can claim they represent the underground Church”.

    In the “media storm” of these recent days, fueled by political motivations attempting to relaunch the campaigns orchestrated by some groups in Hong Kong and in some sectors of the West which are opposing a possible turning point in relations between popular China and the Vatican, the words of Giuseppe Wei Jingyi, Catholic bishop of the diocese of Qiqihar, in the north-eastern province of Heilongjiang, deserve special attention. Because they come from an authoritative voice in China who is openly speaking out.

    Giuseppe Wei Jingyi, born in 1958 in Baoding, is one of the most important and respected figures of the so-called “underground” Catholic Church in China. However, even now the apparatus of the Chinese government does not recognize his episcopal ordination. At the age of 31, he was present as a young priest - with non-marginal duties - at the meeting held in November 1989 in the small village of Zhangerce, in the central-northern province of Shaanxi, with about twenty or so, “underground” bishops or their delegates, whose intention was to give life to a Chinese Episcopal Conference operating beyond the control of the government.

    Wei, a secretly consecrated bishop in June 1995, lived through three different periods of detention and experienced personal freedoms restriction of in the past, the longest of which, took place after the “secret assembly” in Zhangerce, and lasted for more than two years, from September 1990 to December 1992. That is also why, today, his words sound more eloquent and challenging than ever. ​
     
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  13. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    At the Mass I assisted today, celebrated by a priest who's usually really quite good, we had to suffer through an interminable sermon which mostly implied, as far as I could make out, that the lessons of Noah were 'equality' and respect for the 'environment', words which I very much doubt are to be found in Genesis. At one point, the priest seemed to imply that Genesis had to concede to 'evolution', a view condemned by Pope Pius XII and categorically refuted by recent discoveries in biology, molecular biology, paleontology and information theory. Such material heresy is commonplace now and is simply a matter of gullibility and laziness. The ease by which so many in the Church are led into error by the lies of cultural marxism, exemplified by the concepts of 'equality' and environmentalism, is more sinister.
     
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  14. An Guilbneach

    An Guilbneach Mane Nobiscum Domine

    Praetorian is right. You can never go into schism no matter how bad the Bishop my be. All you can do is hold fast to your Catholic Faith/Teachimg.
     
  15. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I think this post is very wise. History gives us great perspective here. In the middle ages it was quite common for Kings and Queens to appoint Bishops. This was of course a very bad idea and the Church has pulled away from this thank God. But there is considerable historic precident for this.

    I think what the Holy Father is doing in China is horrendous of course, but he is Pope and its up to him; he had the authority.

    What can can you say; it's up to him.

    Sigh. It would break your heart. What terrible times we are living through. The Chinese CommunistPartybeing handed over control of the Catholic Church in China. Well I ask you?

    But having the right to do so and it being right to do so are two entirely seperate things.

    May God help us all. It would break your heart it, really ,really would. Talk up total treachery , betrayal and a stab in the back.

    There are simply no words.

    Poor, people, poor, poor Chinese Catholic people. Talk about being sold out. It's just awful.

    If someone can show me a reasonable rationale for the Chinese Communist Party running the Church might be a good idea I'll change my mind on this. But hey since its such a good idea what about letting the Irish Communist Party run the Irish Church too? Or the Communist Party of the USA run that Church? Do those seem like a good idea?

    No; I thought not. Why is it such a hot idea for the poor Chinese then?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  16. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Fatima, thank you for posting the Litany of intercession for the Roman Pontiff. This is the quality of response for how I can cope with all the things being said about the Holy Father and those who are in authority in our Holy Church. It is all too disturbing to me. I feel like a child must feel when their parents are being maligned rightly or wrongly. We are not created to set ourselves up as judges over what we see going on. We just need to hold fast to the traditions of our faith. And I am not talking about the traditionalists who claim the Church since Vatican II is false.

    The traditions which council us to keep the 10 Commandments of God, attend Holy Mass at a minimum, on Sundays and Holy Days as instructed by Holy Mother Church. Say our prayers daily, and fast in some way in reparation for our own sinful behaviours and those of other souls, having confessed as we always have done traditionally.

    We must focus on holding on to the Faith of our Fathers. And above all 'Keep Watch and Pray.'

    The prophesy from Our Lady of Revelation saying the hearts of many will grow cold, also says to me the hearts of many will lose Charity. And this is what some posts feel like........Love and Charity have Grown Cold. Thank God where there is life there is hope as we endure these trials and try and figure out what we need to do in order to not 'FAIL' in the sight of God. We too will be judged for our behaviours.

    BTW, is Silverstream Priory in Meath, Ireland. I am wondering if that Litany was given to the Benedictine priest/ monk who wrote the book 'In Sinu Jesu.' ?

    I still believe Jesus is capable of resolving everything and I trust Jesus whatever happens. So please do not insult me for not damning the Pope.
     
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  17. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Isaiah 5:20

    If your dog goes round biting people, it's a dog that goes round biting people Julia. It's not a lack of charity to face the truth and deal with it.

    If we have a Pope who is going round doing bad things it is not a charity to pretend it is not so or to ignore it.

    Charity begins in the first place with the truth.

    Several of my family have died by now and many of my friends. One of the things I hated at wakes after their deaths was that people insisted on saying nice things about them that simply were not the truth. It was not them. It sounded like charity, it sounded like being nice and kind and whatever but it was simply not the truth for it was not describing my dead, sister, brother or whomever. It was a lie. This was not a kindness to the dead person it is twisting who and what they were for our own ends.

    Sometimes I hear priests say at funerals, 'He/she is in heaven now. ' Well I have a great urge to stand up and say,

    'Well how do you know?'

    People can say very, very sweet things; they can say very ,very kind and generous things; but if it is simply not the truth it is a kind of sweet kind poison.

    In my own life I have found when confronted by great evil the easiest thing to do is to walk away from it or to pretend it is not happening . But the easy thing is not always the right thing. In fact the right thing is usually the hardest thing of all.

    When Pope Francis began to show himself in his true colours the one thing I wanted to do; the one thing I still want to do is to run away and hide from it, to ignore it, to pretend it all is just not happening. That would be the very easiest thing for me to do. But I can't. I love Jesus and Our Lady too much for this. They taught me to face up to the truth and not to run away from it. However hard and terrible that truth may be.

    Yes, there is charity. But there is a false Charity too; just as there is a False Mercy. Charity or Mercy that is not based on the Truth is a lie. The bigger the lie the bigger the harm.

    None of this is easier on any of us, it is one of the biggest spiritual challenges of m entire life. But running away from it, ignoring it or telling ourselves that somehow it is not so is no way to deal with it. The first stage of dealing with evil is to confront it. To face it, not to pretend it somehow it is not there.

    This is not charity it is merely a convenient lie.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
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  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I have prayed and prayed about the Vatican and the Holy Father for many years now, prayed and prayed hard for Discernment. But I think one thing I have taken away from all this is the pure enormity of the times and events we are living through. Eventually if events are to continue as they are the Church will , in the ordinary course of events cease to exist. It is, effectively being dismantled and dismantled from within. Its spiritual existence will cease. Oh yes it will appear to continue as a False Church, but the Catholic Church itself will only continue as small ,Faithful remnant, in prisons and in hidden secret places, slandered, abused, despised. For we are in times described in the Apocalypse when the woman with child flees to hide in the wilderness. Oh yes it is just as bad as that. The living , breathing mystical heart of the Church is being torn out from her chest by the very shepherds who should most cherish, guard and protect her.

    It is just as bad as that. Silence is not an option in these grave times.

    What then of the False Church that we see being raised all round us? She will be adored by the multitudes. Her lies and false miracles will hold the world in awe. She will hold the Great Cathedrals and the High places. Governments and the mighty shall gather at her feet.

    But the little ones , the Anawem, shall flee to the wilderness from the breath of the Great Dragon.

    Rev. 12:1 – A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in labor and agony to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: There was a great fiery red dragon having seven heads and 10 horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4His tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth. And the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth he might devour her child. 5But she gave birth to a Son – a male who is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter – and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, to be fed there for 1,260 days

    [​IMG]
     
  19. padraig

    padraig Powers

  20. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Perfectly stated!

    We are about to be forced to flee to hidden places for Nu-church wants no part of us.
    We are antiquated, rigid, and out of vogue with the monstrosity they are trying to build.

    The church of Holy Communion for everyone.
    The church of homosexual "unions" on their way to having a legitimacy beside marriage.
    The church where sin is only an abstract and nothing to be much concerned over.
    The church where Hell and the Devil are no longer taught or believed in.
    The church of relativism.
    An empty church devoid of supernatural life.

    We will be back at the Mass Rock in the woods maintaining the flickering flame of faith which will seem nearly to have expired.

    Then Christ and His Mother will rise up and cast off this false worldly church.

    I can easily see a judgement where the laity and clergy of Nu-church will say, but we gave your Holy Body and Blood to unrepentant sinners and blessed sexual perversities in Your Name.

    Then He will turn to them with a terrible stare and say "I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."
     

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