I find the way Fr Z presents this topic fairly typical of his approach. I found myself reading Fr Z's blog before reading the original report that Mac has posted. I struggled to understand precisely the point that Fr Z was making. It was easier to understand after reading what Cardinal Baldisseri actually said in the initial report. Basically, the Cardinal (in responding to questions I presume, although the initial report doesn't make this clear) expanded and clarified his earlier statements. Fr Z interprets the clarification as 'backtracking'. Well, of course, he is free to interpret things as he thinks fit but I struggle to see any 'backtracking' in the Cardinal's words. I will take the opportunity of adding here why I am fairly negative about Fr Z's approach to many topics. The reason is that he is negative about Medjugorje. He avoids coming down firmly against it but in his few references over the years, his position is fairly clear. I'm sorry, but 30 years of Medjugorje should be enough for anyone to discern the presence of our Lady.
David said...'I'm sorry, but 30 years of Medjugorje should be enough for anyone to discern the presence of our Lady.' So any Catholic who doesnt accept Medjugorje as authentic is to be avoided? Their opinion null and void? Brilliant!
Well, I personally would be very cautious about the discernment of any practicing Catholic who speaks against Medjugorje. That is my honest position.
I think to many put to much into the unapproved. It is your free will to hold such views . You are cautious against Medjugorje doubters, Glenn against Garabandal doubters , MS7 against LTTW doubters, Fatima if he were still here against Verne doubters... You may read and believe in the unapproved , but to judge others who do not is outside your scope ,vocation , or frankly business. If approved,it would be another matter.
We all have to assess who we listen to if we are looking for advice on any topic. I would not, myself, choose to ask Pope Francis who is likely to win the F1 Monaco Grand Prix this weekend. But would I be 'judging' Pope Francis....? Medjugorje is different from the other missions you mention. I would not have the same view about Garabandal doubters, for instance, because the events took place quite a long time ago and many people know very little about them. But the events of Medjugorje are ongoing and relatively easy to investigate with overwhelming fruits apparent.
It looks to me like Cardinal Baldisseri would like to see doctrine changed (he said the teaching needs to be updated and that the Church is not timeless) but made his second statement because he was told to by someone higher up, possibly Pope Francis himself.
The comments are just as good as the blog post. We live in interesting times: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/05/a-cardinal-backtracks/
I have no problem at all with QRP saying: " ... Sometimes old sparky gets his way when good people get "offed" from various fora ..." even if we leave off the smiley faces bit. Whenever there is injustice or confusion or things are not as they should be - then that is where we see the presence of "dis-grace" just as we see the presence of "grace" when people work in harmony, when there is clarity and beauty and justice. Obviously if "good people" get thrown off this forum by Padriag it is either because they have not been good OR Padraig made a mistake, or a combination of both. Its not the end of the world but if a small injustice has happened or mistakes have been made then either way "old sparky" (merely as minor chaos if you like) was present. That's life.
Strangely I find myself with Mac on this one David, even if you would put it "...be very cautious about the discernment of any practicing Catholic who speaks against Medjugorje." (Mac where did you get the video - looks like an over aged Leonardo DC - definitely no wig.) I believe Medjugorje will never be approved as definitely supernatural. "Fruits" is in the eye of the beholder. Whether that means my discernment is to be cast into the outer darkness I don't know (it is probably already there for many so what have I to lose ). David I will Paypal you 10 Big Macs in congratulations if the "upcoming" Vatican report comes out within two more years and strongly recommends "definitely supernatural." Personally I believe Our Lady did originally appear but somewhere along the line Mr Chaos (I won't use QRP's expression) got involved and the visionaries may not have kept up their guard. Even Pope Francis said somewhere that apparitions don't keep appearing years without end. So 30 years, using the Pope's logic of "discernment", would be the very argument against Medjugorje.
It was prophecised in Medjugorje that the messages would last a long time: April 4, 1985 (HOLY THURSDAY) "Dear children, I thank you for having started to think more about God’s glory in your hearts. Today is the day when I wished to stop giving the messages because some individuals did not accept me. The parish has been moved and I wish to keep on giving you messages as it has never been in history from the beginning of the world. Thank you for having responded to my call."
I'm not sure why people argue over apparitions, locutions or judge another's spiritual life based on which ones they accept or reject. It's all rather personal and not required by our faith. I happen to believe in Medjugorje and Garabandal and I'm interested in LTTW, but I don't think it makes me a better Catholic than someone who does not think likewise. Why split hairs over such things? We have bigger problems in this world than which apparitions and locutions we accept. I know we are all sort of on the edge of our seats waiting for things... but tomorrow the Lord could call any of us home. I think an exchange of ideas about what something may or may not mean helps a bit but fighting about these things is a terrible waste of time. We are all in this together with the same goal in mind... faithful to the RCC and Heaven as a goal. I will say again, how happy I am that people have come back and been welcomed back to the forum.
Obviously any series of alleged apparitions/prophecies, whether true or false or mixed up of both, must always be non-contradictory and consistent with each other. Even Mr Chaos knows that. While TRUE necessitates consistency the reverse is not the case. "Consistency" + "consistency" + "consistency" does not by that fact alone equal TRUE. Mad genius's locked up in asylums are extremely consistent if you are willing to sit down with them and listen. There is no reason why Unicorns and Lochness monsters could not exist because such creatures are consistent with our understanding of the very likely potentials of animal nature and Jurassic history. But that consistency alone doesn't mean they truly must have existed or do exist now if they once did. The first apparitions started in 1981 which may well have been true. As the above 1985 "prophecy" is some years later, and possibly at odds with spiritual principles that Pope Francis succinctly expressed, I personally have no strong reason to believe it is more of heaven than of man. But, as QRP says, there is no point arguing over apparitions so I will say no more on this topic (I am really more about throwing out a few principles of spiritual "discernment" I personally hold to that can be applied to any prophecy/apparition).
Blue Horizon - it's QOP short for Queen of Peace. You call me QRP... I'm not sure what that stands for lol!
So sorry QOP! Just call me Red Horizon if I do it again. QRP is an Amateur Radio term (low power world wide transmitting/receiving). I have recently got myself set up that way (plus solar panels) Come widespread disaster, national or international, should Internet, TV, Satellites, phone, mobiles and telegraph cables fail...I will still have national and international comms. Not that I believe any of this natural disaster stuff .
I thought it sounded like a radio term. I could only think of NPR which I don't listen to . I'm interested in your radio and solar panel things. Maybe you could start a thread about that. I've been thinking about both of those things lately and you could share your knowledge.
The clapper man comes from this site...http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/pg1 I was gonna tell you to stay away from this conspiracy site as you would loathe it. But since your building solar panels and radios it may in fact be right up your alley.
Hmmm, I'd like to see the actual quote for this. FYI, apparitions in Medjugorje aren't the longest running. Church-approved apparitions at Notre Dame du Laus lasted 54 years.
Here are the actual words of Pope Francis which most of the anti-Medjugorje community tried to associate with Medjugorje (quite mistakenly however!): “And when we want to be the masters of the projects of God, of the future, of things, to know everything, to have everything in hand… the Pharisees asked Jesus, ‘When will the Kingdom of God come?’ Curious! They wanted to know the date, the day… The spirit of curiosity distances us from the Spirit of wisdom because all that interests us is the details, the news, the little stories of the day. Oh, how will this come about? It is the how: it is the spirit of the how! And the spirit of curiosity is not a good spirit. It is the spirit of dispersion, of distancing oneself from God, the spirit of talking too much. And Jesus also tells us something interesting: this spirit of curiosity, which is worldly, leads us to confusion. Curiosity impels us to want to feel that the Lord is here or rather there, or leads us to say: 'But I know a visionary, who receives letters from Our Lady, messages from Our Lady'. But, look, Our Lady is the Mother of everyone! And she loves all of us. She is not a postmaster, sending messages every day. Such responses to these situations distance us from the Gospel, from the Holy Spirit, from peace and wisdom, from the glory of God, from the beauty of God.” Unfortunately, the spirit of curiosity to which the Pope refers is very present on this forum!
The only point I can agree with you here is on doubts that the Church will approve Medjugorje in our lifetime. I certainly do not expect it to be approved anytime soon. Its authenticity will simply become apparent as the secrets unfold. The first three secrets (according to Fr Petar Ljubicic) are events which will authenticate Medjugorje in the eyes of the world. You say, 'Fruits are in the eye of the beholder'. Jesus says "you will know them by their fruits."
Yes that looks like the one. "Our Lady is not a postmaster sending us messages everyday." Sounds like a great and succint principle of discernment to me.
