The secrets of Fatima, can be reconciled to a loving God (theodicity)?

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Ok i think thats up to date.

 

One more thing to consider after reading again the text of the secret:

According to this text the war was supposed to break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. Pius XI reigned from 6th February 1922 to 10th February 1939. The first objection is that the WWII is considered to have started 1st September 1939, during the Pontificate of Pius XII. Some, to refute the criticism, say that the conflict started with the second Sino-Japanese war (7th July 1937) to accommodate the date of this war to the Pontificate of Pius XI. But there is a problem with this, and that is the date of the Aurora Borealis Lúcia considered to be the sign from heaven and been seen on January 25th, 1938. This sign that marks the beginning of the "punishment" by God did not precede the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war (1937) but occurred six month later and a year and a half before the beginning of the WWII, ruling out this Asian war as the one the Virgin was referring to. We are sure that the beginning of the war the Virgin was talking about was the WWII as the one worse than the WWI occurring in Europe. The problem is that even if the sign was seen during the Pontificate of Pius XI the statement that WWII "will break out" during his Pontificate is incorrect.

 

Well i hope someone answered it. For there were plenty of answers.

 

I am also looking forward for answers regarding post #22, actually that was more important for me that my last post that could be explained by a simple orthographic mistake (Pius XI(I)).

 

Why is it incorrect?

 

Jose,

Your is considered to have started 1st September 1939 is important in that 1939 is the generally accepted historical date. But Hitler had already initiated his expansionist policies by annexing the Rhineland in 1936 and Austria in 1938, both in clear violation of the Versailles Treaty. Perhaps Heaven's definition of hostilities is different than man's.

Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!

 

Mario,

English is not my mother tongue but I think the definition of "war will break out" does not admit many interpretations. But this is not important, as I said, for me the most important problem is what I posted in message #22 in this thread.

 

Exactly Mario - God's ways are not mans ways. We do not have the mind of the world but the mind of Christ. We need to think from the perspective of heaven and heaven warned the world in Jan 25-25 1938 that God was about to punish the world for its sins with a spectacular display of lights that lit up the world and was seen as an omen throughout the world with blood red skies. Even the Nazis took it as an omen.

The famous night of lights came at the end of Jan 1938 - and - in March 1938 Hitler & his forces invaded Austria and annexed the territory for revealing his goals of domination of Europe. European hostilities had begun. At that point, Asia had been engulfed in war for almost a decade, giving Japan massive land gains. The moment Germany seemed ready to do the same, World War 2 had begun to coalesce - encouraged, Hitler began pressing German claims on the Sudetenland, an area of Czechoslovakia with a predominantly ethnic German population; and soon France and Britain conceded this territory to Germany in the Munich Agreement, which was made against the wishes of the Czechoslovak government, in exchange for a promise of no further territorial demands. Soon after that, however, Germany and Italy forced Czechoslovakia to cede additional territory to Hungary and Poland.
In March 1939, Germany invaded the remainder of Czechoslovakia and subsequently split it into the German Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the pro-German client state, the Slovak Republic.
Alarmed, and with Hitler making further demands on Danzig, France and Britain guaranteed their support for Polish independence; when Italy conquered Albania in April 1939, the same guarantee was extended to Romania and Greece. Heaven called it in January 1938 - the hostile actions of Hitler in March 1938 was the beginning of hostility in Europe and the only path was one of open warfare - think of the poor Austrians, Czechoslovakians and others who suffered under Nazi agression 1938-1939 and one sees the reality that the Fatima prophecies were spot on in their timing.

 

Ok, If we accept the definition of "breaking out" of a war as the beginning of the events....

But this is not the most important thing, what is striking is that nobody knew about this sign and prophecy until 1941!! (Post #22). How could God communicate the beginning of his punishment if this was not published until 1941-3????

 

Here is a timeline of events surrounding the consecration issue: It is clear that Lucia instructed her director to make the consecration request known. It is assumed that Pope Pius XI was informed at some state of his Pontificate but is has proved difficult to tie down an exact date but it seems he was informed some time around 1929-1930.

Lucia wrote in a letter to Pope Pius XII in 1940 that Pope Pius was made known of the desire for consecration after 1929:

In 1929, through another apparition, our Lady asked for the consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart, promising its conversion through this means and the hindering of the propagation of its errors.
Sometime afterwards I told my confessor of the request of our Lady. He tried to fulfill it by making it known to Pius XI.
In several intimate communications our Lord has not stopped insisting on this request, promising lately, to shorten the days of tribulation which He has determined to punish the nations for their crimes, through war, famine and several persecutions of the Holy Church and Your Holiness, if you will consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, with a special mention for Russia, and order that all the Bishops of the world do the same in union with Your Holiness. I

Consecration and Conversion
In the third of Her six apparitions at Fatima, on July 13, 1917, the Blessed Virgin told the three shepherd children that She would return later to ask for the consecration of Russia to Her Immaculate Heart. Our Lady emphasized the importance of this request, which was accompanied by a dire warning:

If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.​

These are the words of the Mother of God, as recounted by Sr. Lucia in her memoirs about the apparitions, first published in the 1940s.
The Request is Made
In June of 1929, Our Lady appeared to Sr. Lucia in her convent in Tuy, Spain. As promised, the Blessed Virgin requested the consecration she had mentioned 12 years earlier at Fatima. Our Lady’s words were recorded in Sr. Lucia’s memoirs:

The moment has come in which God asks the Holy Father, in union with all the Bishops of the world, to make the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, promising to save it by this means. There are so many souls whom the Justice of God condemns for sins committed against Me, that I have come to ask reparation: sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray.​

Our Lord Adds a Warning
Two years later, in the summer of 1931, the urgency of the request was underlined by another visit. This time, Our Lord Himself spoke to Sr. Lucia, and gave her a warning about the consecration of Russia:

Make it known to My ministers given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, like him they will follow him into misfortune.​

This was a reference to Louis XVI, who failed to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and was later overthrown in the French Revolution and beheaded in 1793.
Sr. Lucia Urges Action
Early in 1935, Sr. Lucia wrote to her confessor, Father Bernardo Goncalves, to answer some questions he had about the consecration of Russia: "Regarding the matter of Russia, I think it would please Our Lord very much if you worked to make the Holy Father comply with His wishes ... I think that it should be exactly as Our Lord asked it …" Clearly, the consecration was a matter of some urgency to Sr. Lucia, but there was little indication of any response from the Church hierarchy.
Another Warning
In the spring of 1936, Our Lord told Sr. Lucia that the conversion of Russia would only occur when it was solemnly and publicly consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary by the Pope, together with all the world’s bishops. Our Lady came to tell Sr. Lucia that unless "that poor nation" was consecrated as requested, Russia would become the instrument of world chastisement.
A Consecration — But Not As Requested
In October of 1942, with World War II at its height, Pope Pius XII performed a consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He made no mention of Russia, nor did any of the world’s bishops participate in the ceremony. The following spring, as the war continued, Our Lord told Sr. Lucia that world peace would not result from the Pope’s consecration, but the war would be shortened.

So in the scheme of things God made it clear that consecration was a requirement of obedience from His Church. With obedience comes blessing and grace. Disobedience has its own dark consequences.

 

And this is exactly my point: according to that, only a couple of people (if you are right) knew about this by the time before WWII because the secret was not disclosed by Lúcia until 1941, and as (according to your sources) Pius XI did not fulfill the request of the Virgin and Pius XII did not do it properly, 60 million people had to suffer and die (this seems to be the correct number of casualties of WWII according to wikipedia)

For me an absolute nonsense!

 

Just because it does not make sense to you does not make it nonesense!

Why does it matter that only a few people knew about it? The important point is that the Pope was informed c. 1929-30 and did not obey God.

God asked Abraham to sacrifice His son in an act of Faith. Abraham obeyed and as a result is the father of faith with more descendants than the stars in the sky! Blessing comes through obedience. Disobedience brings its own dark consequences.

I suppose you would say it was nonsense for God to have asked Abraham to sacrifice his son?

 

Not at all. Abraham was not threatened if he would not have been ready to do what the Lord asked him to do. What I said is that makes no sense to write 23 years after the apparition that she was told a prophecy that nobody or, according to you because I do not have sources to check that, only the Pope knew about. For what reason gives God a sign that nobody can interpret? If the prophecy was to be known only by the Pope, it makes no sense to me that God, later and because this man did not fulfill His request, punishes 60 million people. Those two things do not make sense to me.

I do not believe God, having in His hands the life and suffering of all these people, allowed this terrible punishment because his Pope did not obey him.

 

"Our Lord Adds a Warning
Two years later, in the summer of 1931, the urgency of the request was underlined by another visit. This time, Our Lord Himself spoke to Sr. Lucia, and gave her a warning about the consecration of Russia:

Make it known to My ministers given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, like him they will follow him into misfortune.​

This was a reference to Louis XVI, who failed to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and was later overthrown in the French Revolution and beheaded in 1793."

I was thinking on my earlier post and I just wanted to add something that has been on my mind.

2 Things that Our Lady has stressed over and over again is to pray for our priests and that not to wait for the secerts ( of Medjugorje) because it will be too late.

I know this may sound ridiculous to some, but bear with me...these are just a few thoughts I have had about...
Pray for your priests, and it will be too late statements attributed to Our Lady. I think" it will be too late" corresponds to what was said in Akita "If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them."

I have thought long and hard about the statement Our Lady said "it will be too late".
How can it be too late? Will God not forgive our sins anymore? Will the majority of life on the planet be extinct? Is the time of the gentiles fulfilled? These I and other have all asked, and it seems that the answers the seers( from Medjugorje) have said no.

But from Akita Our Lady of Akita, which stated

As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day, recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests. The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, and bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their Confreres. The Church and altars will be vandalized. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.
"The demon will rage especially against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them."

The last line " there will no longer be pardon for them"

So the question is how will there be no longer pardon?
Heres where I think I lose alot of the people reading this.
Continued to next post

 

Your lack of faith in the Omnipotent power of God is staggering.

If prayer and fasting can prevent wars how much more so the consecration of Russia and the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary?

O Sovereign Lord! You have made the heavens and earth by Your great power. Nothing is too hard for you!
Jeremiah 32:17

 

I don't think its a matter of God kinds raining down thunderbolts. Its more a matter of actions having consequences.

God gives us freewill. If he took away the consequences of our freewill, then by definition there would be nothing free about it.