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The Great Monarch and the Holy Pope

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Carol55, Jun 24, 2017.

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Do you believe in the prophecy of the Great Monarch and the Holy Pope?

  1. Yes

    74.1%
  2. No

    3.7%
  3. Uncertain

    22.2%
  1. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Plenty for me to be getting on with. Thanks Vouthon.

    Yes, it is the Matthew Fox translation. I got a bit of a jolt when I looked up Matthew Fox. I hope his translation is accurate and not slanted to suit some of the beliefs which got him expelled from the Dominicans.
     
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  2. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    Thank you for this post!

    Tell me, firstly if you may, from where you are deriving the "three crowns" prediction?

    It seems to stem from a prophecy attributed to St. Francis di Paola - "after having been crowned with three most admirable crowns" - on the internet but which cannot be traced back to him. It is spurious: St. Paola was known to be illiterate and so there aren't any samples of his writing in existence. This would be impossible to have come from him.

    The earliest source in which I have been able to attest it is a book called "The Christian Trumpet" published in Boston in 1874. It appears to have been begotten in the nineteenth century. The "Simeon de Limena, Lord of Montalto," whom the letter was supposed to have been addressed to cannot be traced historically. It is most likely a pseudopigraphical text written to bolster the claims of Henri Chambord.

    The genuine prophecies are deliberately vague because they are pointing the reader towards signs for which they are to be observant. I would not think the GM can be identified prior to his "ascent to power". It's not a puzzle to be solved.

    The point of the prophecies is to be aware of the signs that a given world leader could fulfil the criteria in the appropriate context.

    If, and when, such a figure graced the world stage: the signs would be abundant indicating that he "fits the bill", so to speak.

    As far as I can tell, there is no one on the world stage who matches said individual at present.

    Likewise, the GM is only meaningful in the context of the Second Pentecost. The important thing here is the rejuvenation of the Church and her spread over all nations before the coming of Antichrist. The GM is merely an accessory to this end in tandem with the Holy Pope in the credible prophecies.

    There are many prophecies regarding the "period of peace" that don't mention the GM or the Holy Pope; some merely the Holy Pope and not the GM; others the GM but not the Holy Pope etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  3. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    Hi Dolours,

    Carol had the same valid concerns, my response to her in a PM was as follows last week:

    "Matthew Fox isn't good theologically, in terms of his own writings. He converted from Catholicism to Episopalianism and I'm no fan of his actual books. However, his translation of the Liber is actually good and readily accessible for the first-time reader. I've compared it with other translations and he doesn't change the text to suit any of his otherwise bonkers ideas, if you get my drift."

    The actual translation is good and accessible.

    His personal writings I certain would avoid!
     
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  4. Macadamia

    Macadamia Guest

    Youre most welcome.
    There are a number of indications of the three crown or triple crown prophecy. Di Paola and Thomas a'Beckett are two saints cited as making similar claims.


    Well, thats not entirely correct. Just because he was illiterate doesnt mean he didnt have the gift of prophecy.
    In fact, that would dispel all manner of prophecy including Fatima where the children were illiterate, wouldnt it?
    A quick wikipedia search shows Di Paola cited as a prophet with references includign here http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/FRAPAULA.HTM
    and here Farmer, David Hugh (1997). The Oxford dictionary of saints (4. ed.). Oxford [u.a.]: Oxford Univ. Press. p. 194. ISBN 0-19-280058-2.

    I'm happy to accept your assertion in this regard, as I have do not have the opportunity (or inclination!) to plow through libraries.
    However, I think the 'triple crown'/'thrice crowned' motif - while not a certainty, granted - remains in play.

    Which is what I've been saying.... kinda.

    I agree. Hes not in the public eye right now. He might never be.....


    I agree here also. Im not sure if the GM

    ......which is interesting in itself, no?
    Why do you think some prophets mention or omit such important characters?

    Would you mind looking here - http://motheofgod.com/threads/prophesies-by-various-saints.4274/ - and giving your verdict on which (if any) of these prophecies are 'in' or 'out'.

    (PS - if you ask nicely I'll expand on the triple crown.... even if it is spurious.....) :D
     
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  5. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Indeed, just reading his introduction would have put me off buying the book if you hadn't recommended it. He's away with the fairies as they might say here. The introduction conjures up an image of someone who got lost on his way home from Woodstock, happened upon an Ashram and never really left it. I'll say a prayer for him before I read any more of the book.
     
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  6. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Dolours,

    I still have not completed the purchase of this book, so let me know what you think.

    My original interest stemmed from this thread and although I am interested in Saint Hildegard, I reviewed the contents of the book and there is only a short section on the end of time. So I am sitting on the fence still.
     
  7. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    Indeed, which is why "bonkers" was the only word I could think of to adequately describe him :ROFLMAO:

    His translation is actually faithful to the text and is well-liked but I agree that its best to "hold one's nose" and forget that Matthew Fox has anything to do with it.

    There is a new translation of the entire text coming out next year by a Catholic scholar, thankfully.

    The Letters section was not translated by Fox, incidentally.

    I never actually read his introduction, I must admit! (I'm rather glad about that decision in hindsight given your words above!)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  8. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    You could hold-off till next year's new translation? If you can ignore the fact that Fox had a hand in preparing this, I do think it would be worth it personally.

    In terms of the Liber itself, the final book of her (Vision 10) Liber is regarded as the most systematic eschatological account written by a Catholic during the medieval era. It's actually an entire book (or "vision") devoted to the future of the Church as she saw it, so I wouldn't say its a short section.

    She influenced so many later writings, since she was popularly known as the "Sibyl of the Rhine".

    I do wish the new translation by Nathaniel M. Campbell (to be published by The Catholic University of America Press) had been due in 2017 rather than 2018 but beggars can't be choosers, sadly....

    The Fox translation will become redundant when the Campbell/Catholic University version comes out. But it does the trick well for now, as I said.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
    Carol55 likes this.
  9. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels


    A correction friend: I am not denying that St. Francis di Paola had the gift of prophecy (which is not simply about predicting the future but proclaiming the Word of God, the truth of the Divine deposit of Faith to society, more broadly like the prophets of the Tanakh), what I am denying is that he ever wrote a prophecy about the future.

    He was, to my understanding, illiterate making the attribution of such a text to him very anachronistic to say the least. The prophecy in question did not come from him as far as I can safely discern.

    That, of course, does not imply that its completely lacking in merit per se. Someone obviously wrote it in the nineteenth century (maybe they thought they were inspired? Who knows) but it is not an approved revelation as it purports to be, hence why a later writer has attributed it to a greatly revered saint to provide it with more currency. This is a very common trend, unfortunately.

    I was not trying to be brusque or anything, I simply don't want folk to be reading texts that they think were written by a great saint when in fact...they weren't. That's all. I have an in-built aversion to misattributed and spurious "prophecies".

    I prefer to discuss prophecies with a verifiable and definite origin, preferably approved by the Magisterium.


    It may very well but I would like to see it sourced somewhere reputable, if possible. I will have a look for you but I'm not convinced that this particular prophecies traceable.

    I completely understand that most people do not have the time or inclination to comb through libraries of medieval texts. That's where I hope to be of service to people, if I can.

    Please do so! I would be grateful to hear your theory, either way.

    I will certainly look through that thread for you later this week.

    I always dread such an activity, as I feel like an executioner dropping the guillotine during the French Revolution...there are so many unaccredited "prophecies" floating around on the internet that many heads often "roll" in that regard, unfortunately. :ROFLMAO:
     
  10. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Will do Carol although it will probably take me ages to read it. I'll start reading it tomorrow - probably take it out to the garden to help take my mind off the weeds.
     
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  11. Macadamia

    Macadamia Guest

    You really are a bright spark, arent you Vouthon?
    I could never resist a joust so here goes....
    The 3x crown refers to
    - The crown of a usurper who gives and points to legitimacy of the papacy ("The third crown was added to the papal tiara during the Avignon Papacy (1309–1378), giving rise to the form called the triregnum.[16][17]") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_tiara
    and
    - the country he comes from. (see the sun rising in the West for an additional clue)
    - the fact that he will be elected for 3 terms- from beginning to end.

    Dont worry. I have a thick neck.

    g'night
     
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  12. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    You didn't miss much in the introduction other than confirmation if you needed it that Pope Benedict was no fool.

    Can I ask you to flesh out a little what you understand the katechon to be. A new word to me, I had to look it up and there doesn't seem to be unanimous opinion of what it means. Some seem to see it as whatever is delaying the appearance of the AntiChrist, while others see it as delaying the second coming of Jesus. I suppose the two interpretations are the same really because the AC will come and do his stuff before Jesus returns.

    The Fathers' believing that something like the EU with its centralised power and open borders is necessary for the spread of the Gospel is understandable for their time. In our time, however, technology has made it possible to spread the good news whether or not there is freedom of movement across the world. Wouldn't an enlarged EU, possibly including Israel and a couple of its neighbours and with an elected President, be the type of world power perfect for the AC to direct persecution of the remnant Church? Direct election of the EU President is on the cards and probably has only been delayed by the economic collapse followed by the migrant crisis and the fear that Brexit might be contagious. If we do have an elected President of the EU, Europe's changing demographic doesn't augur well for the election of anyone remotely sympathetic to Christianity.

    One other question: Is it possible that the Great Monarch has been and gone?
     
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  13. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    Of that, there is no doubt!

    Yes, of course.

    The katechon has been a contentious issue in exegesis since the time of the Fathers. Ironically, its meaning was never really disputed by the Patristics - with the notable exception of St. Augustine, who "confessed complete ignorance of its nature" in his City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19 (which I must say was very helpful of him).

    Prior to St. Augustine there had been a clear consensus that the katechon was the Roman Empire and this was held to be the case generally after him as well, until modernity. Here's a sampling of their statements on this point:


    St. Jerome (c. 340-420) Doctor of the Church
    Commentary on Daniel, Chapter 7, Verse 8:

    "... We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings, ..."


    St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202)
    Adversus haereses (inter A.D. 180/199)
    Book V, Chapter 26


    John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator.

    1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ...

    Source: http://newadvent.org/fathers/0103526.htm


    http://www.earlychurchtexts.com/publ...to_emperor.htm


    Tertullian on Christian loyalty to the Emperor - Latin Text with English translation

    In what way do Christians pray for the Emperor? From Tertullian passage from Apologeticus pro Christianis (Apology), 29 - 33.


    XXXII. There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth—in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes—is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome’s duration...​



    St John Chrysostom Homily IV on Second Thessalonians II Thess.ii.6-9:

    And now ye know that which restrains, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness does already work: only there is one that restrains now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming: even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan...

    Only there is one that restrains now, until he be taken out of the way, that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.


    The list is endless but you get the drift, no doubt. In the medieval period, many argued the same about the "Holy Roman Empire", such as Pope Pius II, because Roman legal norms remained in place under the Holy Roman Empire (963–1806) and through the Justinian Code served as a basis for legal practice throughout Western continental Europe, as well as in most former colonies of these European nations, including Latin America, and also in Ethiopia. In a sense, Rome has never truly "died".


    Pope Pius II (Aeneas Silvius Piccolomini),

    On what hinders the manifestation of the Antichrist:

    The Roman Empire also has another privilege, as some asert: they do not think that Antichrist will come while it remains in existence. Thus they interpret these words of St Paul, doctor of the Gentiles, that he who now holdeth, do hold until he be taken out of the way. And then the wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord shall kill with the spirit of His mouth [II Thessalonians 2:7-8]. Origin and Authority of the Roman Empire.

    In Thessalonians 2: 6 - 7, St. Paul explains that the advent of the spirit of lawlessness personified by Antichrist is conditional upon the removal of "something/someone that restrains him" and prevents the "rebellion" against lawful order from being fully manifested. The Katechon restrains both the final tribulation and suffering of the faithful under AC and the Eschaton. In other words, Karl Schmitt, the twentieth century scholar of international law and jurisprudence, was quite correct when he opined that history as such couldn't be without the katechon.

    The verse appears to indicate both a person and a more impersonal authority, perhaps the power wielded by the former over the latter. Interpreters have sought to identify a candidate for which both genders - male, therefore a person and neuter, therefore impersonal - are appropriate.

    Other than St. Augustine, who hadn't a clue, the Fathers were consistent in their belief that the what of the "Katechon" was the Roman Empire while the who was the Roman Emperor - the existence of which prevented civilization from lapsing into "lawlessness", the so-called "war of all against all" that Thomas Hobbes argued the existence of the State restrained in his Leviathan.

    Liturgical prayers for the Emperor remained in the official Roman missals until 1955, even in U.S. missals amazingly.

    In the Collects of the Mass of the Presanctified on Good Friday:


    Oremus et pro Christianissimo imperatore nostro [Nomen] ut Deus et Dominus noster subditas illi faciat omnes barbaras nationes ad nostram perpetuam pacem.

    OREMUS.
    Diaconus: Flectamus genua.
    Subdiaconus: Levate.

    Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, in cujus manu sunt omnium potestates, et omnium jura regnorum: respice ad Romanum benignus imperium; ut gentes, quae in sua feritate confidunt, potentiae tuae dexterae comprimantur. Per Dominum...
    R: Amen.


    Translation:

    Let us pray also for the most Christian Emperor [Name] that the Lord God may reduce to his obedience all barbarous nations for our perpetual peace.
    LET US PRAY.

    Deacon: Let us kneel.
    Subdeacon: Arise.
    O almighty and eternal God, in whose hands are all the power and right of kingdoms, graciously look down on the Roman Empire that those nations who confide in their own haughtiness and strength, may be reduced by the power of Thy right hand. Through the same Lord…
    R: Amen
    .​


    At the end of Exsultet on the Easter Vigil:

    Respice etiam ad devotissimum imperatorem nostrum [Nomen] cujus tu, Deus, desiderii vota praenoscens, ineffabili pietatis et misericordiae tuae munere, tranquillum perpetuae pacis accommoda, et coelestem victoriam cum omni populo suo.

    Translation:

    Look also upon our most devout Emperor [Name], the desires of whose longing you, O God, know beforehand, and by the inexpressible grace of your kindness and mercy grant him the tranquility of lasting peace and heavenly victory with all his people.

    This is testimony to the historical pervasiveness of the belief that the Roman Emperor/Empire served as the "katechon" and therefore, as per Tertullian that there was no "greater necessity than our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general".
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
  14. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    Interesting points. There's a lot to answer here!

    I'll get back to you on this tomorrow with a full reply.

    I wouldn't think so, given that we have not yet had a Second Pentecost in which the gospel reaches the ends of the earth that terminates to make way for the "rebellion" of AC, or the corporate conversion of the Jewish people. The GM, as the prophecies present him to us, is an "accessory" within this context, for the purpose of the greatest evangelization in history before the end.

    Since none of this has happened yet, he and the Holy Pope can't have come imho. In my understanding, the GM/HP are probably to be identified with the "Two Witnesses" described in the Book of Revelation.

    St. Victorinus of Pettau (died 304 AD) a church father who wrote the earliest Latin commentary on the Book of Revelation, opined that the "two wings of the great eagle" in Revelation 12: 14 were to be identified with the 'Two Witnesses" of the Last Days - and that these would be two prophets coming, in the spirit I would say, of Elijah and Moses/Enoch. In the Apocalypse, these two figures are based upon the High Priest Joshua and Prince Zerubbabel from the Book of Zechariah: prototypes of the Holy Pope and Great Monarch.

    St. Victorious wrote:


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm



    6. But the woman fled into the wilderness, and there were given to her two great eagle's wings. The aid of the great eagle's wingsto wit, the gift of prophets— was given to that Catholic Church, whence in the last times a hundred and forty-four thousands of men should believe in the preaching of Elias; but, moreover, he here says that the rest of the people should be found alive on the coming of the Lord. And the Lord says in the Gospel: Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; Luke 21:21 that is, as many as should be gathered together in Judea, let them go to that place which they have ready, and let them be supported there for three years and six months from the presence of the devil.

    14. Two great wings are the two prophets— Elias, and the prophet who shall be with him...

    7-9. There was a battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon warred, and his angels, and they prevailed not; nor was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast forth, that old serpent: he was cast forth into the earth. This is the beginning of Antichrist; yet previously Elias must prophesy, and there must be times of peace. And afterwards, when the three years and six months are completed in the preaching of Elias, he also must be cast down from heaven, where up till that time he had had the power of ascending; and all the apostate angels, as well as Antichrist, must be roused up from hell

    So you see that St. Victorinus believed there had to be "times of peace" before the coming of Antichrist, initiated by two prophets who will come to the aid of the Church undergoing persecution during the preceding tribulation like the "wings of a great eagle," the metaphor of flight being used to indicate a respite from Satan, fleeing to safety, and a soaring to new heights due to the extraordinary success of the gospel as a result of the ministry of the two prophets of the End Times. These are the exact same figures whom St. Louis de Montfort referred to when he spoke of, "Apostles of the End Times" who would "extend the Lord’s empire over the impious, the idolators and Muslims" (TD 49), receiving the deluge of fire that will empower them to convert "Muslims, idolators and even Jews" (PM 17) and thereby "enkindle everywhere the fires of divine love" (TD 56), "build the temple of the true Solomon and the mystical city of God" (TD 48), and "shower down the rain of God’s word and of eternal life" (TD 57).

    The Great Monarch and Holy Pope fulfil this same role according to the prophecies.

    They are either the last prototypes for the Two Witnesses or they are the Two Witnesses. Either way, their role is essentially the same.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017
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  15. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    Maybe the 3x crown refers to a now modern day prophecy that includes both Secretariat and American Pharaoh!!:rolleyes:
     
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  16. Vouthon

    Vouthon Angels

    To give St. Victorinus of Pettau's exegesis in full:


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0712.htm


    "......2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God.

    He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution. We read that these things are predicted in the opening of the Old and New Testament; for He says by Malachi: Lo, I will send to you Elias the Tishbite, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, according to the time of calling, to recall the Jews to the faith of the people that succeed them. And to that end He shows, as we have said, that the number of those that shall believe, of the Jews and of the nations, is a great multitude which no man was able to number. Moreover, we read in the Gospel that the prayers of the Church are sent from heaven by an angel, and that they are received against wrath, and that the kingdom of Antichrist is cast out and extinguished by holy angels....

    6. But the woman fled into the wilderness, and there were given to her two great eagle's wings.

    The aid of the great eagle's wings— to wit, the gift of prophets— was given to that Catholic Church, whence in the last times a hundred and forty-four thousands of men should believe in the preaching of Elias...

    14. Two great wings are the two prophets— Elias, and the prophet who shall be with him...

    7-9. There was a battle in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon warred, and his angels, and they prevailed not; nor was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast forth, that old serpent: he was cast forth into the earth.

    This is the beginning of Antichrist; yet previously Elias must prophesy, and there must be times of peace. And afterwards, when the three years and six months are completed in the preaching of Elias, he also must be cast down from heaven, where up till that time he had had the power of ascending; and all the apostate angels, as well as Antichrist, must be roused up from hell...."​
     
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  17. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Macadamia,
    I wonder from all of the things that you have stated, if you believe that these prophecies are not from heaven and they are speaking of the Antichrist?
    He will fit some of the things that we know about Our Lord (born in exile) but he will not be able to perform miracles. A person crowned 3 times who is not necessarily a royal? Someone who will assume the crowns of Our Lord: Prince of Peace, King of the Jews, King of Kings? (I'm probably not correct on this.)

    This is not my opinion but I am wondering if it is yours?
     
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  18. Macadamia

    Macadamia Guest

    This is a very good question.
    I had thought that GM could have been Konrad Adenauer (post WWII German leader) and we could be further ahead than we think!

    I hadnt thought of that!
    My personal view is that only Christ is perfect.
    His role as Priest and King must therefore be split between two people before he arrives.
    Thus only the GM will be all powerful in temporal matters and only the HP in spiritual matters.
    Combined they are but a faint reflection of Christs glory.

    Remember Jesus was of 'royal lineage' and lowly birth. Yet worshipped by kings.
    He had spiritual Grace but no political power, yet has formed states.
    The highest human achievement must then be to gather these characteristics in two or more people and present them to the world as a weak reflection of the Glory to come.

    Just for fun; you'll all have figured out by now that the '3 Crowns' [​IMG] is the national emblem of Sweden, right?

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
  19. Macadamia

    Macadamia Guest

    and east anglia[​IMG]
     
  20. Macadamia

    Macadamia Guest

    (sorry havent figured out how to resize that stuff....mods?)
     

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