The Cloud of Unknowing

Discussion in 'On prayer itself' started by SteveD, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. Mario

    Mario Powers

    A great word picture:

    Just watching it turn black, as the flame assaults it and removes all moisture...

    I still have a lot of moisture...:censored:
     
    sterph, Pax Prima, AED and 2 others like this.
  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    More moisture here, as well.
     
    sterph, Pax Prima and AED like this.
  3. Carmelite

    Carmelite Archangels

    You’re not alone in that. Most of us do:)
     
  4. padraig

    padraig Powers

    It's interesting in the big books of the Mystical Theologians how often they describe Contemplative Prayer as being a Great Gift and very rare. I expect that in Contemplative Communities it is not so rare, it can comes with the Vocation. But outside this with the Laity? I would guess it rare enough and getting rarer. Things like Smart Phones and TV's and Social Media are such great takers of peoples time.

    I was walking along the beach on a really beautiful afternoon looking at all the beauty today when I met a young man walking along with his head totally stuck in his smart phone. I think Contemplative prayer,well any kind of prayer, requires space and peace and quiet, so hard to get these days.
    Please pray for Jordan Petersen , he is so close to becoming a Catholic.

     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
    Ang, Ed Kleese, AED and 2 others like this.
  5. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I would say that the pathway to Contemplative prayer is very much the same as the Parable of Jesus, 'The Hidden Treasure and Pearl of Great Price'.

     
    Booklady and AED like this.
  6. Carmelite

    Carmelite Archangels

    I think the prayer of quiet, the beginning of contemplation is actually quite common. But the self emptying and level of death to self to move past that is rare. God desires our union with Him and as much as we empty ourselves He fills. But like said above, there are many competitors in this world. Phones, materialism, etc
     
    padraig, AED and Pax Prima like this.
  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I think too, that many people mistake what is a beginning fro an end. We are always, always at the very beginning. As St Francis used to say to the brothers,

    'My Little Brothers, let us begin today'.

    [​IMG]
     
    Agnes McAllister, sterph, LMF and 2 others like this.
  8. Carmelite

    Carmelite Archangels

    So beautiful and true:)
     
  9. padraig

    padraig Powers

    The best description of contemplative prayer, for myself, came from the French peasant, a parishioner of the Cure of Ars. This man went to Mass each day and left his shovel outside the Church door so he could go to work in the fields after Church. Returning to Church in the evening the Saint was very surprised to see the shovel still standing there and when he went in the old man still praying. Wondering the Cure of Ars asked him what he did all day in Church? To which the Holy old man replied,

    'I look at God and He looks at me'.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. padraig

    padraig Powers

    To me Contemplative Prayer is rather like sitting by a river bank staring at a great, deep flowing river on a lovely summers day. All at once you find yourself no longer looking at the river but you are become the river. You are the river's strength and movement, you are its depth and power. You are its sounds and all that lives within it. You are the sun that reflects on the river, the winds that gently blow over it. You are the moon stars that reflect on it, like a mirror at night time. Like it you become ageless and timeless, slow and flowing in the heart of the Good God.

    ..and yet the curious thing is that we do not loose ourselves in the vastness of it all, but, rather, in becoming one the vast river that is the Holy Spirit, the Heart of God we find ourselves fully as individuals and know ourselves more perfectly there, in loving, loved and being loved, loving.

    Psalm 8

    4what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? 5You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor. 6You made him ruler of the works of Your hands; You have placed everything under his feet:…


    [​IMG]

     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2024
    Ed Kleese, Mario, Pax Prima and 3 others like this.
  11. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    I wonder if the Orthodox mystical experience of seeing the "Uncreated Light", in a deep stage of contemplative prayer, is something minimally compatible with Catholic contemplative theology and practice.
     
    AED and padraig like this.
  12. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Great
    :love:
     
    AED and Prayslie like this.
  13. LMF

    LMF Archangels

    Beautiful ~
     
    HeavenlyHosts and AED like this.
  14. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Pope Saint John Paul describes the Eastern and Western parts of the Church as being like two sides of a pair of lungs which require each other for the whole body to breathe. In the Eastern Church the focus is on the Resurrection and Light, in the Western Church our focus tends to be on the Passion and the Dark. For the East the Feast of the Transifiguration and Easter would be right up there. For the West the Sorrowful Mysteries.

    It would be hard to imagine an Eastern Saint, for example, with the Stigmata. To some extent ,I think what we put into the Mystical we get out. So our spirituality will effect how and what we see. I am not saying all Mystical experiences are purely subjective, they do have a real objective reality but there is is a subjective component.

    I think a very good example of this in action was St Seraphim of Sarov a 19th century Russian Orthodox monk and hermit, recognised as a saint by the Catholic Church itself. He always wore a white habit to celebrate Easter. But there is an account of an interview with a journalist in which the saint was asked about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and was answered by a great miracle.

    He also had a bear as a dear friend, which I love.

    [​IMG]

     
    Mary's child, LMF, AED and 1 other person like this.
  15. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    This emphasis by the two churches each on one of the 2 main events of the Easter Triduum, respectively, seems to indicate a complementary relationship between them, as John Paul II suggested with the analogy of the two lungs.
     
    Booklady, padraig and Mario like this.
  16. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    "True hope seeks the one Kingdom of God and is sure that everything necessary for this mortal life will surely be given. The heart cannot have peace until it acquires this hope. This hope pacifies it fully and brings joy to it. The most holy lips of the Saviour spoke about this very hope: "Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Mt. 11:28)."

    "Where there is God, there is no evil. Everything coming from God is peaceful, healthy and leads a person to the judgment of his own imperfections and humility."

    "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved."
    - St. Seraphim of Sarov

    If I recall correctly, scripture it mentions how the world was flooded because men had evil on their hearts constantly. The same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah getting destroyed. Then again with the Hebrews after David. Which seems to be the case in the world today collectively. At the same time there is this interesting phenomena, where saints would go out to remote areas to start a monastery and around it over time a town would grow up, and the town would prosper. The Hebrews under David prospered greatly. So it appears we bring blessings and curses upon ourselves not just by our actions, but also by what we focus on. I often wonder what the world would look like if everyone had God on our hearts all the time.

    Speaking of St. John Vianney, I remember hearing a story where a young atheist who was incensed after hearing about him decided to go pay him a visit to debate him. But upon entering the church and taking one look at St. John Vianney, he claimed to himself that truly God did exist. St. John Vianney didn't have to say a single word.

    Then Jesus also tells us that if we look at a woman with lust, we have already committed the sin. The same with forgiveness, we have to forgive 70 x 7, I suspect because Jesus wants us to keep our hearts clean. Focused on His Love and Peace.

    Saint Seraphim of Sarov is considered to be something of an equivalent of St. Francis in the Orthodox Church. I like how he says where there is God there is no evil. It is similar to how St. Francis said where there is prayer and meditation there is neither anxiety or doubt. It seems simple at first glance, but for me it is profound, because there can either be God in the heart or that which is not of God. The two cannot exist simultaneously.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that in these times I don't think it is possible to change the church or the world strictly by worldly action, especially given the weight of our collective sin. I truly believe that positive change will only happen when we keep our hearts clean and focused on God as God directs us. I know I am not a St. Francis or St. Seraphim, because I simply don't have the faith to live as they lived, but I think it is possible to try anyway. And by following their example I pray God blesses us all in this time of great confusion, even if it is very little.
     
    Booklady, padraig, maryrose and 2 others like this.
  17. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    "Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible."
    "Let us begin again, for up to now we have done nothing.”
    - St. Francis

    I know you already had already made one of these quotes earlier Padraig, but I thought it would be nice to post it again.
     
    LMF likes this.
  18. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    "Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God." They are clean of heart who despise earthly things and always seek those of heaven, and who never cease to adore and contemplate the Lord God Living and True, with a pure heart and mind.

    - The Counsels of the Holy Father St. Francis, Admonition 16.
     
  19. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    I know many people who do not attend Mass on Sundays; however, they like to attend the sieges of Jericho that are organized annually in my parish, with uninterrupted adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. I often wonder if the silence and contemplation of contemplative prayer could draw them back to the church in their fullness. Would a global spiritual crusade through contemplative prayer lead many back to the Church with a greater awareness of respect for the liturgy?
     
    padraig likes this.
  20. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    I don't know exactly to be sincere. Several have tried over the last 100 years and have had some success. But the movements seemed to be centered around a contemplative leader of sorts. Off the top of my head I am thinking of Thomas Merton, John Main and Richard Rohr. While awareness had spread it also seemed to be limited. In the case of John Main he had a prodigy by the name of Lawrence Freeman, who still promotes contemplative prayer but doesn't seem to have the same impact John Main had. The main audience for those who follow Lawrence Freeman's teachings appear to be well over sixty now. I have heard from those who had been around John Main, that his presence was remarkable and peaceful.

    It is my impression, and I could be entirely wrong, that if a kind of contemplative crusade were to happen it would take leaders who have a deep understanding of contemplation that is based on experience. If it were promoted by people who do not have a strong experiential understanding I believe it would simply fall flat, because those promoters don't necessarily have the experience/presence needed to guide people properly. Today we have platforms to spread the messages far and wide, so if a strong contemplative leader did emerge and begin to teach I think they could bring many back.

    That being said I also think most people are simply not interested given the status quo. They want mass to be as fast as possible. For example, often priests will go straight into announcements and closing prayers once handing out the host is done, not giving people a chance to be with the Lord. So while the priest is good and holy, it sends a certain kind of impression to the laity.

    Padre Pio sometimes had two hour masses. With most priests people would be bored out of their minds, but with Padre Pio they felt like the masses only took 10 minutes and they were at peace the whole time. The line ups to see Padre Pio were incredible.
     
    Luan Ribeiro likes this.

Share This Page