Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Nov 11, 2016.
Two Peas in a pod?
I hope not.
I am both very surprised and very pleased that EWTN have been so outspoken on this subject. May other take heart and follow their example.
This is what Conchita from Garabandal says of communism:
�This excerpt is taken from the German book by Albrecht Weber, Garabandal優er Zeigefinger Gottes (Garabandal裕he Finger of God) (2):
Conchita told the author in 1965 when everything would be set in motion:
"When communism comes again everything will happen."
The author responded: "What do you mean by comes again?"
"Yes, when it newly comes again," she replied.
"Does that mean that communism will go away before that?"
"I don't know," she said in reply, "the Blessed Virgin simply said 'when communism comes again'."
Isn't there a prophesy about a pope regretting something he had done, too late? (Not the consecration of Russia)
I have just attended a beautiful Sunday evening Mass during which was sung "Be still my soul." I was given the huge privilege and priceless gift of being able to walk two more souls through the Doors of Mercy this weekend.
Our Holy Father has been so good to us in this special year and distributed the riches of the church to the poor and needy in body, mind and soul. He has truly shown us The Way.
I pray that in the coming year we may all be sustained in faith and be a strong sign of hope for others. As Glenn has assured us it will be Pope Francis who will lead and deliver us through the end of the times which now approach. As Conchita said, "Salvation is in his hands."
Because of the approbation Conchita has receieved from saints and because of the consistent and cohesive nature of her witness her words are more than good enough for me.
If Conchita says Salvation is in his hands I am happy to leave myself in his hands and to continue to believe in his goodness and The Spirit from whom all good things come. I say thank God for Pope Francis.
"Hideous", "destructive", "wicked", and "perverted" are only some of the adjectives used by the Popes to describe socialism. From Pius IX to Benedict XVI, the popes have thoroughly and consistently condemned socialism. Given the advance of socialism in America, TFP Student Action is glad to offer its readers a brief selection of thought-provoking quotes from the Popes on the topic.
LEO XIII (1878-1903)
Overthrow is Deliberately Planned“...
For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists.”(Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27)
Debasing the Natural Union of Man and Woman
“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust.(Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)
The Harvest of Misery“
...there is need for a union of brave minds with all the resources they can command. The harvest of misery is before our eyes, and the dreadful projects of the most disastrous national upheavals are threatening us from the growing power of the socialistic movement.”(Encyclical Graves de Communi Re, January 18, 1901, n. 21)
SAINT PIUS X (1903-1914)
The Dream of Re-Shaping Society will Bring Socialism
“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ ... What are they going to produce? ... A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.”
(Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique ["Our Apostolic Mandate"] to the French Bishops, August 15, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)
BENEDICT XV (1914-1922)
Never Forget the Condemnation of Socialism
“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.”
(Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)
PIUS XI (1922-1939)
Socialism Cannot Be Reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.”
(Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 117)
Catholic Socialism is a Contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)
PIUS XII (1939-1958)
The Church Will Fight Socialism to the End
“[The Church undertook] the protection of the individual and the family against a current threatening to bring about a total socialization which in the end would make the specter of the 'Leviathan' become a shocking reality. The Church will fight this battle to the end, for it is a question of supreme values: the dignity of man and the salvation of souls."
“Radio message to the Katholikentag of Vienna,” September 14, 1952 in Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, vol. XIV, p. 314
The All-Powerful State Harms True Prosperity
"To consider the State as something ultimate to which everything else should be subordinated and directed, cannot fail to harm the true and lasting prosperity of nations."
(Encyclical Summi Pontificatus, October 20, 1939, n. 60)
JOHN XXIII (1958-1963)
“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate socialism”
“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production; it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.”
(Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)
PAUL VI (1963-1978)
"Christians Tend to Idealize Socialism“
Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.”
(Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)
JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005)
Socialism: Danger of a "simple and radical solution"
“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope's critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’"
(Encyclical Centesimus Annus - On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)
BENEDICT XVI (2005 - 2013)
"We do not Need a State which Controls Everything“
The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.”
(Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)
I don't want to make a big deal about it, but it seems to me that what Pope Francis is saying is directly contrary to what all previous Popes have said on the subject.
Perhaps we will get yet another of those now famous, 'Corrections' from the Vatican Press Office shortly . Perhaps it would save everybody the trouble if the Press Office simply spoke for this Pope and save all the trouble of constant , 'Corrections'.
Coming from a family who was persecuted by the communists this is so heartbreaking.
Yeah - Communists think like Communists --------------
Joe, the article you have shared captures well the intent and thinking of Pope Francis. Thank you. As ever, Pope Francis is simply espousing the principles of the Beatitudes and the exhortation from the final judgment as described in Matthew 25:40: "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'
The Pope Denies Being a Communist. Then He Explains What He Believes is at the Heart of Christianity
By Charles Samuel
2 years ago
Pope Francis sure has a way with words. It was only a few days ago when he took a bold stance on scientific theory and creation theory, distancing himself from his more traditional predecessors by telling the world to stop “imagining God was a magician.”
In one fell swoop, the Pope seemed to back both Big Bang and Evolution. On to the next controversy, right?
Now he's hoping that with his latest comments, the long-standing rumors of his communist leanings will finally be put to rest. Because there really is no difference between charity and forced wealth redistribution from an all-powerful state that dictates the livelihoods and fortunes of all its citizens, if you really stop and think about it.
No, don't stop. Keep thinking about that until it makes sense.
In a long speech covering topics like poverty and the strife of the current economic climate, the Pope said his concerns were merely an extension of what the Bible says he should be concerned with anyway. According to The Independent:
Francis declared that “land, housing and work are increasingly unavailable to the majority’ of the world’s population,” but said “If I talk about this, some will think that the Pope is communist.”
“They don't understand that love for the poor is at the centre of the Gospel,” he said. “Demanding this isn't unusual, it's the social doctrine of the church.”
So yes, he's a champion for the poor and and believes economic benefits should be legitimately distributed. But no, he's not communist; rather, he believes they've just “stolen the flag... of the poor [that] is Christian.”
He doesn't seem to be preaching this message to gain popularity or win the favor of millennials, but he is anyway. He was even in TIME as their 2013 “Person of the Year.”
But Pope Francis is on a wider mission here, and his consistent message proves it. The difficulty lies in finding a balance between a faith that demands people to put others first and current issues that force people to draw hard lines in the sand. He's trying to find that balance.
And on Twitter, the Pope isn't pretending. Standing in the gap for people is his calling.
Here's a tweet that counters the atrocities of war with a simple prayer for the displaced and suffering:
Pope Francis ✔ @Pontifex
I pray every day for all who are suffering in Iraq. Please join me.
4:40 AM - 5 Sep 2014
Or this one, where he calls it like it is:
Pope Francis ✔ @Pontifex
There is the tendency to place ourselves and our ambitions at the center of our lives. This is very human, but it is not Christian.
2:00 AM - 27 Sep 2014
It doesn't seem like the Pope is interested in winning too many popularity contests — despite the fact that he is pretty popular. He seems more interested in getting people to understand what the Gospel is all about.
As for economics, more people have been lifted out of poverty by that “evil” capitalism over the last twenty years than by all the charity and UN initiatives combined. So it is possible to care for the poor without supporting state-led wealth redistribution.
And with this post affirming the Holy Father, Joe has been silently removed. As I mentioned elsewhere, this brings to mind the fate of the despreciados, in South American countries, who faced the furor of the junta. The despreciados who would dare disagree simply disappeared, rejected, despised, spurned, silenced.
And I wonder, why is there not space in this place to express love, loyalty, respect and appreciation for the Vicar of Christ? I find this mystifying, perplexing, astounding, particularly on a forum dedicated to the Mother of God, the Mother of the Church. How grieved Her Heart must be at such treatment of Her Son's Vicar for Pope Francis most certainly IS Peter today, deserving of every iota of respect, love, loyalty and appreciation with Christ's Promises protecting Him and protecting the Church. May God have mercy on each and every one of us.
Are you sure he has been removed?
Yes, Garabandal. Please, just search yourself for the member "Joseph Crozier" and you'll find the error message reporting that such a name cannot be found.
Back to the central arguments concerning the poor. Pope John Paul II sums up Catholic Social teaching:
“...what is being proposed as an alternative is not the socialist system, which in fact turns out to be State capitalism, but rather a society of free work, of enterprise and of participation. Such a society is not directed against the market, but demands that the market be appropriately controlled by the forces of society and by the State, so as to guarantee that the basic needs of the whole of society are satisfied.” (Rerum Novarum no. 35)
In other words - the right to private property and free enterprise are at the heart of any 'sound & healthy economy' that provides employment opportunities at just wages for all adults who are able to work.
I have read several posts by Joe in just the last few days.
I've only just noticed this thread. Thank you 'wee one' for posting this antidote to the nonsense now being pushed regarding the Pope. What concerns me though is that EWTN seems now to be getting into the 'lets try and portray the Pope in a bad way' style of reporting. The only 'dreadful' words that Pope Francis seems to have said are:
“It it has been said many times and my response has always been that, if anything, it is the communists who think like Christians. Christ spoke of a society where the poor, the weak and the marginalized have the right to decide. Not demagogues, not Barabbas, but the people, the poor, whether they have faith in a transcendent God or not. It is they who must help to achieve equality and freedom".
As 'wee one' points out, it is not exactly a good idea to talk in this way because it allows the mischief makers a field day but the Pope, as always, tells it as it is.
With all due respect David - even what he says here is too close to the knuckle.
Communism is an evil system and idea. Period.
Communists do not think like Christians. That is errant nonsense even if it is from the mouth of a Pope.
God has given us a brain to think. When someone comes out with something absurd we have a right to challenge it without being portrayed as anti-Francis. I disagree with what he says on this issue.
Separate names with a comma.