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Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by mothersuperior7, Dec 25, 2016.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    This is an outright lie. They are subordinate to the Holy See ONLY in regards to their member religious, brothers, for whom the Holy See is competent to intervene because of their religious component.

    Otherwise they are a lay global institution and if a non religious member refuses to abide by Church teaching they are completely free to act without any interference whatsoever by the Holy See.

    If there is a problem with their religious who take a vow only then is the Holy See competent to act. No such problem exists.

    The problem with contraceptives was just uncovered this fall by the Lepanto group's private investigation, and they acted within two months, amazing speed for a global institution when such a controversial subject is involved.

    CRS has been guilty of similar crimes for years and no one has acted.
  2. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    Well, to begin with it's not an "outright lie" since I named both forms of authority that the "ancient Order" is connected to, (if they don't particularly like the Holy See to parent them in all their decisions) in this case the leaders are demanding the Order members to side with the portion standing only with the international foundation.....but beyond that, a house divided amongst itself cannot stand, (and that isn't really a very nice call, "outright lie", towards another at any time, but in the Holy Season, a very bad example of the fruit of anger) since currently this "ancient Order" seems to be begging all of its members for unity since at least some of the members disagree with the choice given....to subordinate, in this case, only to the international portion/side of the Order. Looks like maybe the "religious component" as you say, may find themselves left in the cold as orphans looking for another home! And after all these years! Sad. And since the years involving the secular side on the medical expertise component went missing something in their "clean up" it would seem that the group just might need that extra oversight and examination.
  3. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    No anger whatsoever. It's simply a matter of calling a spade a spade, regardless of your continued verbal gymnastics.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Knights of Malta to Pope: Stay Out of It
    by Church Militant • ChurchMilitant.com • December 26, 2016 0 Comments
    The Order of the Knights of Malta was founded in 1113, and is one of the oldest institutions in Western civilation. After Napoleon expelled the order from Malta in 1798, it made its home in Rome. The order is sovereign, and prints its own coins, stamps and passports. Today it is an international humanitarian organization with approximately 100,000 members worldwide and has diplomatic relations with more than 100 states, and has permanent observer status at the United Nations.

    On December 22, Pope Francis created a commission to investigate the ouster of the order's Grand Chancellor, who claims he was asked to resign in a December 6 meeting with Cdl. Raymond Burke, patron of the order. In an extraordinary rebuke to the Roman Pontiff, the Grand Master reminded the Holy Father he lacks jurisdiction to intervene. An official statement of the order explained its position.

    The Grand Magistry of the Sovereign Order of Malta has learnt of the decision made by the Holy See to appoint a group of five persons to shed light on the replacement of the former Grand Chancellor.

    The replacement of the former Grand Chancellor is an act of internal government administration of the sovereign Order of Malta and consequently falls solely within its competence.

    The aforementioned appointment is the result of a misunderstanding by the Secretariat of State of the Holy See.

    The Grand Master respectfully clarified the situation in a letter to the Supreme Pontiff, laying out the reasons why the suggestions made by the Secretariat of State were unacceptable.

    He assured the Holy Father of his filial devotion and asked the Pontiff for the Apostolic Blessing, both for him and for the Sovereign Order of Malta, its 13,500 members and its 100,000 staff and volunteers who continue to provide a permanent and efficient hospitaller presence in more than 120 countries in the world according to the centuries-old charism of the Order of Malta.

    Raymond de Souza, a Knight of Malta, spoke with Church Militant about the situation.

    CM: What is the Holy Father attempting to do?

    Raymond de Souza: First of all, some background information.

    The Grand Chancellor of the Order of Malta, the German Mr. Albrecht von Boeselager, was involved in a program that the Order's Malteser International aid group had participated in several years ago, with other aid groups, in Myanmar. They were helping sex slaves, including giving them condoms to protect them from HIV infection.

    I have not received any reports about the Chancellor working to stop the sex slavery, but only to provide the condoms and medical services.

    Von Boeselager has said as soon as the order's headquarters in Rome learned of the condom distribution, two of the projects were immediately halted. A third continued, he said, because an abrupt end to the project "would have deprived a poor region of Myanmar of all basic medical services." The project eventually ended after the Vatican's doctrine office intervened.

    Mr. von Boeselager was asked to resign, but twice he refused to do so.

    Then the Order's Grand Magistry decided to remove him from the position of Chancellor. It was an entirely administrative decision, which the Magistry is totally competent and authorized to make.

    In response, the Holy Father, who has reportedly approved the use of condoms to prevent transmitting Zika infections, and evidently extending a hand of support to von Boeselager, took it upon himself to appoint a five-member commission to investigate the matter.

    "The Grand Master, Fra. Matthew Festing, respectfully clarified the situation in a letter to the Supreme Pontiff, laying out the reasons why the suggestions made by the Secretariat of State were unacceptable. He also pointed out to the Pontiff that the aforementioned appointment was the result of a misunderstanding by the Secretariat of State of the Holy See.

    He assured the Holy Father of his filial devotion and asked the Pontiff for the Apostolic Blessing, both for him and for the Sovereign Order of Malta, its 13,500 members and its 100,000 staff and volunteers who continue to provide a permanent and efficient hospitaller presence in more than 120 countries in the world according to the centuries-old charism of the Order of Malta."

    CM: Why does the Pope lack jurisdiction or authority?

    Raymond de Souza: The appointment of the commission is unacceptable because the Order of Malta is a sovereign entity, like any State, and the Holy Father has no authority to intervene in its internal administrative affairs, just as he may not intervene in the administration matters of Norway, India or the United States.

    Our Order received its autonomy by Pope Pascal II in the 11th century, and since then we have been faithful sons of the Church as far as faith, morals and ecclesiastical discipline are concerned. But our internal administration is our affair.

    CM: Do you think his intervention here has anything to do with latent hostility towards Cdl. Burke, who is patron of the Order?

    Raymond de Souza: I do. Considering the evidently hostile way in which Cdl. Burke has been treated by priests and bishops who support the Holy Father's ambiguous stances, this fake commission may well be just a decoy to involve Cdl. Burke, who is the Patron of the Order, in the scandal, and help discredit him — and, by association, the other cardinals who asked the Holy Father to clarify his ambiguous teaching in "Amoris Laetitia" on marriage and adultery.

    CM: What further comments on the situation would you like to add?

    Raymond de Souza: I believe that the Holy See ought to direct their concern to improve the pathetically poor doctrinal and moral education of the Catholic people in many countries — to put it charitably — so as to inform and form consciences according to the perennial teachings that have been handed down to us by the Apostles and made more and more explicit by the Magisterium until John Paul II and Benedict XVI; they should likewise stay out of internal administrative decisions of independent bodies like the Sovereign and Military Order of Malta, of which I am proud to be a Knight of Magistral Grace.

    Together with other Knights, we offer our Grand Master our total support in his effort to safeguard our sovereignty. The Catholic Church is not a dictatorship, but a family, where the rights given to the faithful are respected.
  5. jerry, earthtoangels and davidtlig like this.
  6. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  7. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    A big thank you, ms7, for this article but also for introducing me to this particular website which seems to me a very balanced one, managing to recognize the evils in both left and right viewpoints. The current situation regarding opposition to the Pope reminds me of the opposition Pope Paul VI had to face after his Humanae Vitae encyclical. The basic difference is that Pope Paul's opposition came from the 'left', while Francis' opposition comes from the 'right'.
  8. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    At least HV is a clear, precise and unambigous document.

    It was clear who the dissenters were.

    The problem with AL is that certain sections are ambigous and open to interpretation.

    Those who want clarity are labelled dissenters when this is not always the case.
    Mario likes this.
  9. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    BrianK likes this.
  10. Frodo

    Frodo Angels

    little me and BrianK like this.
  11. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Translation of above:

    Frodo doesn't agree with the article!
    jerry and earthtoangels like this.
  12. Frodo

    Frodo Angels

    Tell me, have you read it David?
  13. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    And C. Burke has been their favored "poster boy" from the very beginning of Pope Francis' time in office... from among those who consider themselves anointed authorities to speak FOR the Pope out of turn....and what he REALLY means!!

    Arroyo always used to turn Mother Angelica into a kind of caricature of "nunnery", imitating her voice in very childish ways not maturely understanding what a real mystic is and how truly holy and great that she was with far more respect due to her....waaaay too familiar and rather ungrateful for all of her such personally accepted humiliations. She granted him access and he wrote a book. But now how is her legacy for how she wished her station to be being followed?? All of them owe what current "fame" and pseudo importance they have to this simple woman who wasn't afraid of the institutionalized organization Church while fearlessly introducing the prophets for our time to her audience which the current group won't touch with a ten foot pole. She had her sisters not watch the program after she was forced to separate herself from the organization that took over in order to at least keep it going. She's more than likely turning in her grave so to speak at such an attitude toward the Pope.
    mothersuperior7 likes this.
  14. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Thanks, MS7, this article does provide information I have not seen before, especially the quote from a letter of St. John Paul II. I have to apologize for not pursuing the footnotes more thoroughly. AL does include a call to couples to live lives of continence in order to receive the Eucharist. If they fail, then the document reminds them to first seek the mercy found in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

    This doesn't mean I stand against the dubia in that the four cardinals are only seeking further clarification, but my being upset with Pope Francis appears premature. Unfortunately, you cannot cut and paste with this article. I would hope that Padraig and Brian would take a close look and let us know what they think of these points which haven't come up in the discussion so far.

    One may argue that certain prelates will misuse AL to bolster an agenda that contradicts Church teaching, but that sort of rebellion had been already evident in St. John Paul II's and Benedict XVI's pontificate.

    Safe in the Barque of Peter.
    josephite and mothersuperior7 like this.
  15. archangel michael

    archangel michael Moderator

    Off Topic but if memory serves me right, didnt Pope Benedict meet with the order of Malta one day prior to his resignation?
  16. jerry

    jerry Angels

    mothersuperior7 likes this.
  17. Frodo

    Frodo Angels

    The author is misrepresenting what the Argentine's bishop's letter states.

    It really boils down to paragraph 5 & 6, I believe you would do better to read it yourself:

    5) When the concrete circumstances of a couple
    make it feasible
    , especially when both are
    Christians with a journey of faith, it is possible to
    propose that they make the effort of living in
    Amoris Laetitia does not ignore the
    difficulties of this option (cf. note 329) and leaves
    open the possibility of receiving the sacrament of
    Reconciliation when one fails in this intention
    (cf.note 364, according to the teaching of Saint John
    Paul II to Cardinal W. Baum, of 22/03/1996).

    6) In other, more complex circumstances, and
    when it is not possible to obtain a declaration of
    nullity, the aforementioned option (continence) may not, in
    fact, be feasible
    . Nonetheless, it is equally
    possible to undertake a journey of discernment. If one
    arrives at the recognition that, in a particular case,
    there are limitations that diminish responsibility
    and culpability
    (cf. 301-302), particularly
    when a person judges that he would fall into a subsequent
    fault by damaging the children of the new union,
    Amoris Laetitia opens up the possibility of access
    to the sacraments of Reconciliation and the
    !! (cf. notes 336 and 351). These in turn
    dispose the person to continue maturing and
    growing with the aid of grace.
    The bishop's letter is clearly talking about divorced and remarried couples who are not abstaining. This goes against Catholic teaching. The author of that article spills a lot of digital ink trying to twist the bishop's letter into something it is not. His entire reading is faulty which makes the whole article not only a waste of time, but an unfair hit-piece on those who state the obvious.
    sterph, little me, Dolours and 2 others like this.
  18. Mario

    Mario Powers


    This conversation is so enlightening. In my aforementioned article, they critiqued EWTN for picking and choosing what to say. This news agency then turned around and quotes the above paragraph 5 without mentioning paragraph 6. I think I will just keep my mouth shut until I read both documents in their entirety.

    Has it always been this way; am I that naive to think you can find objectivity without agenda? Yes, that is it. Actually, I'm falling victim to the same warning I gave in post #51 in the In Petrie Sede Vacante thread. I'm drawing conclusions without all the facts! Yeesh!:rolleyes:

    Anyway, thank you, Frodo, for your clarification.:)

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
    Frodo likes this.
  19. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Order of Malta leader professes loyalty to Pope Francis amid Vatican investigation

    by Staff Reporter
    posted Monday, 2 Jan 2017

    Fra' Matthew Festing said the Order would follow the Pope at this 'complex and difficult time'

    The leader of the Order of Malta has promised Pope Francis his loyalty, as the Order faces an investigation by the Vatican over a recent controversy.

    In a letter to mark the World Day of Peace, Fra’ Matthew Festing, the organisation’s Grand Master, told Pope Francis: “the Order … even in a difficult and complex time, seeks to render its service in closely adhering to the teaching of the Church and the directions which come from the Successor to St Peter.”

    Festing was referring to the recent dismissal of Albrecht Boeselager, the Grand Chancellor of the order. Boeselager has been accused of allowing the distribution of condoms, as part of a scheme with which the order was linked. But Festing said Boeselager was removed for allegedly concealing problems in his previous role of overseeing the order’s charitable work. The Order of Malta’s members run hospitals, nursing homes, night shelters and other forms of charitable outreach in 120 countries.

    Boeselager refused to resign, which Festing called a “disgraceful” act of disobedience. Festing and the other senior members of the order, including the Patron, Cardinal Raymond Burke, agreed to suspend Boeselager from his membership. A new Grand Chancellor, John Chretien, has been appointed.

    Pope Francis has ordered an investigation into the dispute.

    On Saturday, the Vatican’s Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin told the Italian newspaper Il Messaggero that the Order faced an “unprecedented crisis”. The Pope’s commission would “gather information”, Cardinal Parolin said, “and then we will see.”

    earthtoangels likes this.
  20. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    There are many other more serious issues in the Church that Pope Francis could be investigating.

    Storm in a tea-cup comes to mind when dealing with the sacking of one individual. Talk about micro-management.
    Byron and Dolours like this.

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