"Francis has been totally orthodox..can only be faulted by faulty reading"

"Only God knows which atheists suffer from invincible ignorance."

Exactly!

"One thing is for sure there are no actual atheists in heaven."

Cool!

 

Not a direct quote but supposedly from Scalfari's interview with Pope which was subsequently pulled.

Fits in with the general tenor of the interview since Scalfari insists Pope Francis told him there was no need to convert.

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/atheist-scalfari-pope-asked-me-not-to-convert

Of course Scalfari doesn't record the interviews which creates its own problems.

http://edwardpentin.co.uk/vatican-unease-over-latest-scalfari-interview-with-pope-francis/

 

My brother is a staunch atheist, probably as bad as I have met, and he told me that even if he knew or found out that God exists he would still think it (religion and God) is all rubbish. He told me yesterday even if he found out that God exists he would still prefer to go to Hell I told him that Hell is not a place he wants to go to. I honestly don't know what I can do for him, I've tried praying for him.

 

You just keep praying and fasting for his salvation. God will give the grace to repent we just have to trust.

 

Fits in with the general tenor of the interview since Scalfari insists Pope Francis told him there was no need to convert.

"After telling Francis that his friends thought he wanted to convert him, the Pope replied: "Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.”

The Church doesn't engage in Proselytism.

 

Thanks Fatima. I have a feeling he will be ok, I just have to keep praying and fasting like you said.

 

Hi Janet, I have been away from the forum for a while but I wanted to say welcome and also thank you for your work in exposing MDM. Kudos!

I am a bit confused though. Are you saying that the Church shouldn't try to convert people to the Catholic faith?

 

Please, Janet, spare me "The Pope is from Argentina y'know" line. He has no trouble getting the message across when he wants to condemn people he doesn't like or who don't hero worship him. The media loved him from the beginning. His atheist friend, his priest friend, his friend from school and many more have been saying the same thing - that admitting remarried divorcees to Communion is a priority of his papacy and they have been proved right. Neither did the media invent his supposedly picking at random a letter from an Argentinian remarried divorcee who was complaining that her priest wouldn't give her Communion and giving her permission to receive Communion. So much for pastoral accomaniment! They didn't invent him telling the Lutheran woman to "proceed" when she complained about not being permitted to receive Communion with her Catholic husband. They didn't invent the Lutherans being given Communion in the Vatican. It goes on and on and on without end and we are finding out bit by bit that very little of it is out of context. He is very careful to not try to officially change doctrine because he knows that he doesn't have the authority. Instead he choose the sly, underhand approach of rendering doctrine irrelevant. When we've reached the stage of nuns talking about "Pope Francis Catholics", it's time to sit up and take notice. You might be comfortable with that but I'm not. Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church and anyone, even an angel from Heaven, who implies or suggests otherwise is in serious error. The Pope's authority stops the instant he implies that living the faith is too heavy a burden for the faithful to carry.

The Cardinal was most certainly wrong. At least we agree on that. His model has been given Papal approval. I won't bother re-posting the video of Cardinal Schonborn's clarification of Amoris Laetitia (which he gave after checking whether he was on the record). You can find it on YouTube. Cardinal Schonborn didn't bother waiting for a Synod to go ahead with treating adulterous unions the same as marriage. Now the Pope has recommended it for the Universal Church and the Argentinian Bishops have adopted it. And let's not forget that Amoris Laetitia groups many types of sexual relationships into the "irregular" category. We already have the Pope's own words, in context, telling us that common law marriages are real marriages if they have lasted a while and the couple aren't sleeping around with anyone else, and that there is good in homosexual unions. Once we all get over the shock of adulterous unions being acceptable, the rest are a shoo-in.

I think I have a grasp of loving the sinner while hating the sin. Perhaps the problem you have is that Pope Francis is Christ's Vicar on earth but he isn't Jesus and he has no authority to reverse or render irrelevant via pastoral practice Christ's teaching on marriage. I don't see the love in enabling the sinner to keep on sinning in the faint hope that he will eventually stop sinning. It is established Church teaching that absolution is contingent on repentance and firm amendment to avoid repeating the sin. Any contradictory teaching or practice is neither merciful nor loving. I see that you have latched on to the Pope's favourite slur against anyone who questions him - that everyone who doesn't toe the false mercy line is a Pharisee. You (and the Pope) conveniently forget the part where Jesus said "do as they say, not as they do".

That's right, Janet, Jesus never condoned the sin of adultery. Pope Francis, on the other hand, is rather ambiguous on the "stop sinning" part, and not only adultery, but fornication, sodomy and artificial contraception. He's quite judgemental, however, on other sins. It's just abstaining from sins of a sexual nature that he considers too heavy a burden for the faithful.

I don't recall any Church teaching advocating the stoning of adulterers. The Church has always extended the hand of mercy to sinners, and we sinners knew how to avail of God's mercy as well as the sanctifying grace of all the sacraments, including the Eucharist. Until this papacy, it merely required that people repent of their sins and resolve to not sin again. Are you telling me that we have had Pharisees leading the Church for the past 2000 years - that previous Popes, many of whom were martyred, were less merciful than this Pope?

You conveniently omitted the bible quotation where Jesus put the Pharisees straight about marriage and adultery. The Protestants also shelved that teaching when they accepted divorce and turned a blind eye to adultery. "Merciful" contraception, abortion, euthanasia and homosexual marriage followed - in an attempt to make their religion relevant to the prevailing culture. Now they have married homosexual clergy and the Pope is headed to a celebration of the Reformation. There's nothing to celebrate about following the wide rather than the narrow path. It may work for a short time but ends in failure. I suppose that when we are treated to yet another media circus in Sweden, nobody will bother pointing out that less than 20% of Swedish Lutherans believe there is a God. No doubt the Lutherans have some kind of teaching similar to Catholic Doctrine on marriage and sexual morality but their pastoral practice renders it obsolete. That's the direction Pope Francis is leading us and his plans for ecclesiology will make sure that Bishops and priests who are faithful to Christ's teaching will be the marginalised and eventually persecuted remnant. There's nothing merciful about it and saying so doesn't make me a Pharisee or a Protestant. It's comical, really, to see people who applaud this Protestant method of watering down the faith pointing the finger at those of us who see it for what it is and calling us Protestants. That's blatant hypocrisy, and since you're so fond of quoting the bible I'm sure I don't need to remind you what Jesus said about hypocrites. Normally, I wouldn't be so blunt but since you are so quick to tell me that I can't tell the difference between hating the sin and loving the sinner, there's no harm suggesting that you check for any beams in your own eye.

continued in next post

 

He condemned the sin of choosing gender, but he knows - we all know - that he has given the LGBT lobby encouragement by slipping the thin end of the wedge into the Church's wall of defence of traditional marriage. And as soon as his strategy of sidelining Bishops who defend it vocally are retired or die off, the LGBT lobby will have plenty of "Pope Francis Catholics" in senior positions to implement their agenda. Abortion is the biggest destroyer of innocent human life and the major culprits of the anti-life abortion cultural colonisation are the UN and the US, particularly the US Democratic Party led by Obama. During his trip to the US, he managed a brief mention of abortion buried in his long address to the UN after his love-in with the US anti-life politicians. Did I miss the part where he mentioned that Biden and some other high profile US politicians are only pretend Catholics? Did Lifesite news squash that statement? No, I don't think so. Calling out powerful pretend Catholics wouldn't be consistent with lauding Emma Bonino as a forgotten great - a woman who boasted about using bicycle pumps to murder innocent unborn babies. It's sad that you portray the notorious NCR (a favourite with cafeteria Catholics) as a legitimate source while slurring Lifesite news. Maybe you can provide a link to the article in Lifesite news where they said that Pope Francis is an anti-Pope or in league with Satan. Trouble is, Janet, that the Pope who says that the Church isn't just another NGO actually treats it like another NGO where promoting abortion is ok so long as it is accompanied by food parcels.

I do my research Janet. I bought the "media are misrepresenting the Pope" line at first until I couldn't swallow it any longer. Yes, the doctrines are in place because Pope Francis doesn't have the time to appoint sufficient Cardinals and Bishops to push through the changes, so he is using the pastoral approach instead. He knows that there would be instant schism if he tried to reverse doctrine and that wouldn't fit his image as the great unifier. He is adopting the same Protestant pastoral approach that has destroyed Christianity in Western culture - an approach that some of his favourite Cardinals and Bishops had already adopted with no good fruits to show for it. Confession is a waste of time if repentance and a purpose of amendment are not required for absolution. The Church has always been a hospital for sinners. Band-aids don't treat disease and are more likely to aid the spread of infection than to cure it. From you vast knowledge of the bible, can you quote me a text where Jesus said go on home now and don't worry about the sin until you feel the time is right for you to repent? Is there some passage that says that intimacy with someone who isn't your spouse is ok for the sake of the children? [/QUOTE]

That "Jesus ate with sinners" line has been used and misused to gloss over all sorts that Jesus didn't approve of. It might add some weight to your argument if you could show me anywhere in Sacred Scripture or Church teaching that shows Jesus saying that there's grace in fornication, fidelity in adultery; good in homosexual unions; or greatness in committing abortion.


The Church has been going out and finding the "lost" for 2000 years. Have the German Bishops, so admired by the Pope, traded their Audis for bicycles? Can you provide a source for your statement that under Francis many are coming back? He hasn't had much success converting his atheist, Imam, Rabbi, or apostate friends.


Of course that priest knew what he was doing, but his excuse was "pastoral accompaniment". If the priests can't figure out the difference between right and wrong under Pope Francis, what hope for the rest of us?


It isn't rubbish that priests can now give the ok to remarried divorcees engaging in sexual relations. It's a fact. You might not want to accept that fact, but it doesn't make it any less a fact.


I'm not lost Janet. I've been on this earth long enough to recognise a devious manipulator when I see one. You accuse anyone who recognises the error of the Pope Francis approach of being Pharisees, Protestants, or of suggesting he is in league with Satan. Who are you to judge? I believe that he is wrong; that he is embracing a failed Protestant pastoral approach that renders doctrine irrelevant; spreading confusion in the Church; setting Bishop against Bishop; isn't nearly as merciful as he likes to portray himself; and is storing up enormous problems for his successors. That said, he's still the Pope so we have to put up with him just like previous generations had to suffer bad Popes. Christ will remain with His Church until the end, but we have plenty of warning that it will eventually be a small Church. I believe that history will prove that Pope Francis was a shepherd who hastened the great apostasy. I can only pray that his successor will make a better effort of defending the deposit of faith.

 

How to convert people? Should the days of fire and brimstone return?

More people were converted by Mother Theresa by her actions...then by her words. To convert a soul, it doesn't necessarily mean beating someone up with their failures. Converting souls is a tricky subject. I guess it starts with ones own soul. The way you act, if in union with the Holy Spirit, gradually leads others to you. That is when conversion process begins. It starts with our personal spirituality...only then can we start converting souls.

Not to Judge others...BUT, the way some people attack the church and Our Holy Father, some people here must live sinless. The arrogance... to be so easy to condemn. Some of us must be spiritual giants.

But back to the question Should the church try to convert people. YES But it is a life long process, it rarely happens with one speach. It might start with a few kind words, a friendly smile, a friendly good morning to a complete stranger. That is how God begins the conversion process of others.

On a sad note, my spirituality is slowly dwindling . Its a long journey and its easy to fall (forget). So my posts are gradually changing. Spiritually everything is clouded.

 

+
Brother Al,
I will be saying extra prayers for you from now on. You are now in Jesus' arms and under Mother's Mantle. No better place. Be at peace and power up. We need you at full power dear Brother.

Your Brother in Christ,
Peace, Ed
+

 

I second that!! I always enjoy your posts brother al!!

 

Hey...no worries Sanctus. you just pray and fast as Fatima said. If you have not already done so, consecrate yourself to Mary so your prayers will be augmented by her and she will take a special interest in and look after your family all the more. God has a plan for everyone's salvation. Sometimes getting out of His way and surrendering our family members to Him is the best option. Our part is to pray daily so they cooperate with God's grace to realize His plan for their salvation.

My brother was a staunch atheist too. But, he had a softening of heart right before he died unexpectedly. I was always so worried about him but I should not have been as he was in God's hands all along. My mother had a supernatural experience on our way to the hospital to confirm my feelings of peace that he had been saved even though we had just found out that he died. I think there are a million reasons why some go down the atheist path...it is not all willful ignorance. We really don't know how culpable someone is for being an atheist so no matter how rigid they may be...God knows why and has a plan for it all. We just pray, fast, and make sacrifices when they seem so beyond our reach.

 

Thank you Dolours. This is simply the best series of responses to this absolute sophistry that has been posted on this forum to date. I just had to break my silence to commend your bravery in correcting these blatant falsehoods.

 

Thanks PotatoSack, I needed to hear that. I will trust that God has a plan.

 

Prayers for you, Brother Al. I, too, appreciate your posts.

 

Never stop praying for him. This is a good time to repeat what a priest told us in his homily one Sunday - that he has seen too many deathbed conversions to discount the power of praying for family members who have strayed from the faith. Never lose hope.

 

Well fallen saint...do not despond...you may be suffering the dark night of the soul. It is Gods work purifying your soul. It can be painful. Just let go and let God and try to maintain your peace.

 

That "Jesus ate with sinners" line has been used and misused to gloss over all sorts that Jesus didn't approve of. It might add some weight to your argument if you could show me anywhere in Sacred Scripture or Church teaching that shows Jesus saying that there's grace in fornication, fidelity in adultery; good in homosexual unions; or greatness in committing abortion.


The Church has been going out and finding the "lost" for 2000 years. Have the German Bishops, so admired by the Pope, traded their Audis for bicycles? Can you provide a source for your statement that under Francis many are coming back? He hasn't had much success converting his atheist, Imam, Rabbi, or apostate friends.


Of course that priest knew what he was doing, but his excuse was "pastoral accompaniment". If the priests can't figure out the difference between right and wrong under Pope Francis, what hope for the rest of us?


It isn't rubbish that priests can now give the ok to remarried divorcees engaging in sexual relations. It's a fact. You might not want to accept that fact, but it doesn't make it any less a fact.


I'm not lost Janet. I've been on this earth long enough to recognise a devious manipulator when I see one. You accuse anyone who recognises the error of the Pope Francis approach of being Pharisees, Protestants, or of suggesting he is in league with Satan. Who are you to judge? I believe that he is wrong; that he is embracing a failed Protestant pastoral approach that renders doctrine irrelevant; spreading confusion in the Church; setting Bishop against Bishop; isn't nearly as merciful as he likes to portray himself; and is storing up enormous problems for his successors. That said, he's still the Pope so we have to put up with him just like previous generations had to suffer bad Popes. Christ will remain with His Church until the end, but we have plenty of warning that it will eventually be a small Church. I believe that history will prove that Pope Francis was a shepherd who hastened the great apostasy. I can only pray that his successor will make a better effort of defending the deposit of faith.[/QUOTE]

You seem to have all your ducks in order as to why the Pope is bad...a nice ordered list of reported dirty laundry. Which is why I personally don't buy into it... but of course you are entitled to your own opinion. " Rigid observation without personal communication can lead to distorted truth". This of course has been my experience. I think if you were to have a quiet chat with Pope Francis you would walk away quite comfortable knowing that God willed this man...elected by valid means...to be the man for this hour.

 

'
Our Lady tells us what is most important Br Al, to gain conversions. And oddly enough she didnt use the word 'Accompaniment' or tell us to smile.

At Fatima, the Blessed Virgin Mary told the three child seers that many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray or make sacrifices for them.
This is the start of the conversion process. That is why we use to consider it so important that the Monasteries and Convents be full.
Conversion is a grace. And the truth is important also.