Extraordinary Synod , February 21-24, 2019 in Rome. " Protection of Minors".

Enough personal attacks Reuben. Move on.

 

Some people have conjectured about a "Re-unification" of the Churches as a "possible" reason for the visit too.

 

Keep your comments so that you look pristine and clean, and remove mine. Wrong Glenn. That is not moving on. You have become a god like unto yourself.

 

Enough insults, this is a discussion board, NOT FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS. ENOUGH OR YOU ARE GONE ! GROW UP.

 

That could be bingo, Don!

 

All comments will pertain to this thread topic or will be deleted !

 

Edited to add a bit about the Ukrainian churches being at the heart of this matter...

I think that the Vatican secret agreement with the Atheist Totalitarian communist State of China plays into this (as I understand it) in that the Russian Patriarch Kirill (who is obviously loyal to the state who in turn is allied with China militarily) wishes to obtain formally the power of the Eastern Church which would entail the Ukrainian Churches allegiances to be returned to Moscow. The Ukrainian Church itself has a movement to become their own Church within the State of Ukraine and would no longer come under Moscow's heirarchy. The first among the Bishops of the Eastern Orthodox resides in the Patriarch Bartholomeos in Constantinople. If the Moscow church takes formal leadership of the Eastern Orthodox Churches this may provide for both the unification of the Church East/West and also the collision of the two stars in the potential for schism we are seeing playing out now between Bartholomeos and Kirill. One thing I think that could come from this is the other Orthodox Churches will definitely splinter as a result. We have already seen some of this.

Reubin, I too want to hear your testimony when you post it. God bless you.

 

Well, if you give any credence to the spin from Crux (owned by the Knights of Columbus), it's all good. Crux is very clever at disguising its spin.

They had an interview with Cardinal O'Malley which I can't find now where the Cardinal says that Pope Francis wants to help the Church in the US get to the bottom of the abuse crisis. I'm pretty sure he said something about a very upbeat atmosphere at the meeting between the Pope and the US delegation. I think he used the word "joyful" at some stage but that could have been about the US Bishops' Hispanic gathering. Then, Crux had a report about a gathering hosted by Jesuit Georgetown University where McCarrick's "close collaborator" and "the USCCB's point man on Capitol Hill" John Carr, called on the Pope to " break his silence" on the McCarrick fiasco. Carr says he had challenged McCarrick about the rumours but McCarrick assured him it was all lies and had been thoroughly investigated by the media (as if the media would blow the lid on a Bishop acting as a tool of the Democratic Party). Of course, in true Crux style, the report includes a little dig at Vigano. They also covered the Pope's press conference on the return flight from the Balkans. Despite refusing to answer questions about the Vigano issue, Pope Francis seems to have told the reporters that he never "signed" anything reversing a decision where a priest had been found guilty. Pope Francis was also chuffed at receiving messages of support from Bishops around the world, including a joint letter from the leaders of the two Catholic churches in China. Looks like the Vatican is getting out the whitewash and brushes.

Regarding the agreement with China, there's this from Asia News: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-...ndependent-and-loyal-to-the-Party'-45022.html

The Chinese Church 'remains independent and loyal to the Party'

A note from the Patriotic Association of Chinese Catholics and the Council of Bishops of the Church of China (bodies not recognized by the Holy See) comments on the "historic agreement" on episcopal appointments: "We remain on the path that leads to socialism". "Heartfelt" appreciation for the signature between the Vatican and Beijing.

Beijing (AsiaNews) - The Chinese Catholic Church "will continue to operate independently. We love the country and the Church, we will carry forward the principle of independence and the concept of the sinicization of religion while remaining on the path that leads to socialist society ".

This was written by members of the Patriotic Association of Chinese Catholics and the Council of Bishops of the Church of China (bodies not recognized by the Holy See) in a public note issued yesterday, the day after the"historic agreement" between China and the Vatican on the appointment of bishops in the Asian country.

The signature of the agreement is welcomed "with a heartfelt appreciation" and the Chinese Catholic Church emphasizes that it "belongs to the same faith" of the Catholic Churches of other countries: "We want to pursue friendly exchanges and improve mutual understanding. On the basis of independence, respect, equality and good faith.”
​

Asia News has also been getting the opinions of faithful Catholics in China:
http://asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-...t-China-and-the-Holy-See-agreement-45028.html
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chin...but-without-forgetting-the-martyrs-45023.html

Asia News is a Catholic news service based in Italy so I expect that it won't be long before the whack of a few croziers will result in no more quotes from Chinese Catholics mentioning Bishops fathering children. No doubt next February's Synod will cover that when the celibacy rule is made optional. The hierarchy are probably hoping that a sudden rush of priests up the aisle with girlfriends and children popping out of the closet will divert attention from the lavendar mafia.

Pray for Chinese Catholics.

 

Pray indeed. If it is not enough that the potential of even belonging to the Church might affect their lovely state social status score the potential for the State co-opted Church leadership there itself to interact with this is always a possibility also.

 

Incredibly, the Pope likened the agreement with China to the times when Christian monarchs in Europe had a say in appointing Bishops. One of those Asia News reports quotes Catholics in China saying that churches are obliged to have CCTV - I think that's to enable State surveillance.

I'm too lazy to search out the Crux link with his inflight press conference, but the Pope was also very impressed with the Christian unity in the Baltics - praising the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. - "even the Orthodox". According to him, it's all one Church.

 

I am sickened by this china thing. He makes deaks with communists who hurt their devout people. They appoint their own bishops who preach what they want. Sickening.

 

I meant he makes deals. These chubby fingers always hitting wrong keys

 

Yes when I saw this monarchs appointment of Bishops thing I have to admit that I laughed. By all means the Church has the authority to do this but couple this with the overall general attitude of the Beast of capitalism etc and one begins to wonder if the history of Catholic influence in the west specifically regarding shaping of its markets and economies has entered the minds of these men. It was open markets and the push to allow expansion of trade which was the overlying pillar of those times across these kingdoms. Not totalitarian control of the populace.
The Chinese Catholic church has cameras in every parish so that the state can monitor it's activities. It forbids Chinese Catholics from bringing any child under the age of 18 to Mass and even Church events. So basically it is OK to be Catholic so long as you do not evangelize or spread the faith in any way, even to your own children. The state is going to be sadly disappointed that these measure do not work. I think they know this and that is why they wish to have Bishops appointed who are loyal to the state above all and can attempt to keep a handle on their diocese's. What happens when they can't? Are they going to execute these men for failing the state? How many Bishops will they keep putting forward before it erupts into open persecution?
Or is it the plan to so completely corrupt via appointments the teaching and tradition of the Church through these men so that the state will erect its own Church. This I think is the goal but I suspect that God might have something to say about that.

 

I think the Vatican has a similar arrangement in Vietnam. I'm not sure of that, and anyway the China deal is a secret, even from Chinese Catholics so there's no way of knowing the similarities or differences. For all I know, the deal with Vietnam may also be a secret. There's a huge difference, however, between the size and influence of Vietnam and the size and influence of China.

Maybe it's my suspicious mind but the timing of closing this deal with China rings alarm bells. Is it a coincidence that the Vatican signed what they describe as a bad deal in the middle of the McCarrick scandal? McCarrick had stayed in the seminary operated by the State sponsored Church. Archbishop Vigano, in his testimony, said that Pope Francis sent McCarrick to China despite having been made aware of McCarrick's track record of abusing seminarians. It wouldn't be unheard of for Communist regimes to engineer compromising situations.

 

You don't have a suspicious mind Dolours. You have a logical mind, with reason that is well formed. It is one of the things I admire about you is your insight into noodling out these situations and considering all angles so don't fall for the notion that your thinking is suspect. It isn't.
Unheard of? That's their standard method of operations, I think it is reasonable to conclude that is exactly what they did.

 

I hope with all my heart that my suspicions are unfounded, otherwise the implications don't bear thinking about. Cardinal Parolin was in on the closing of this deal and he was named in Archbishop Vigano's testimony. Archbishop Vigano also drew attention to something any Catholic paying attention can't be unaware of: that a great many Jesuits to all intents and purposes have lost the faith (if they ever had faith).

It was the Jesuit Review which uploaded that video on YouTube portraying China as a place where Catholics practice their faith freely. They did so with the full knowledge that China persecutes not just Catholics but anyone who believes in God. Cardinal Ladaria is the Jesuit chosen by Pope Francis to replace Cardinal Muller as Prefect of the CDF. Cardinal Ladaria had been Secretary of the same CDF so how could he have been unaware of the CDF's file on Cardinal McCarrick? The pervert McCarrick's shadow looms all over this deal.

As Catholics, we have to believe that God will bring good from the deeds even of our worst Popes. We can but hope and pray that this deal doesn't lead to the wholesale betrayal and slaughter of faithful Catholics in China all for the sake of protecting the reputation of a Pope who sent a known pervert to a hostile Communist country on official Church business.

 

Me too, but, I would say on a good day 1 in 10 Catholics pay any attention to what the Church is doing at any given moment but hopefully this number is increasing. I would also say about 3 in 10 are Catholic. The rest are Protestants, secular humanists, and agnostics.
Whether or not the Vatican inked a deal with the State of China the persecution will continue while there are Catholics there who live the Faith.
No Catholic in China can reconcile the states solution to children and their faith for instance. The State makes them criminals by simply being born and being obedient to God's design.

 

I've been following this board for quite some time and I want to congratulate the manner in which you run the forum.

One of the reasons for me joining is how you control the level of hysteria that can develop when discussing such a polarizing topic.
Considering your special relationship with the seer, we should consider ourselves grateful that such a page even exists.

Again, thank you for providing clarity.