Did Pope Francis show his hand on Medjugorje?

It's no surprise to hear some of the visionaries own guest houses. I've always been okay with this. I'm sure their children insist on eating same as mine's do . What are the visionaries supposed to do - their choice is, make an honest living or live off charity. I leave it to the Vatican investigation to decide if they are making excessive profit from the apparitions, or living modestly.

 

It is neither calumny or gossip, I agree.

It is detraction

 

I give up​

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I think I will take the dogs for a walk now it is not raining.​

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I went to confession this morning and the priest told me he is going after mass to the funeral of a young guy who killed himslfl a few days ago, please say a prayer for him.​

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Poor kid..and his family.​

 

For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

 

Blessed Mother please reach the hearts of young people experiencing despair

 

jose, are you saying that it is a sin and a hoax to make money? Really? So in order for an apparition to not be a hoax you can not make a living for yourselves? The hoax is you and Rino pretending you are experts in apparition discernment when you can't even begin to explain the real authentication of these apparitions, which is the miracles of healing from terminal diseases as I posted earlier. No, you see the fruits of an apparition as whether the seers are having to make a living. You are blind to what graces are coming from Medjugorje and you look at the external life, not the internal life of the seers. Are they stealing by making an honest living? Where is the sin in making an honest living?

 

No, I am not saying that. I already discussed Medjugorje long ago and the SEVERAL reason why many people think this is a hoax. One, I say again, one of those reasons is the profit of the seers are making with the apparitions. This is one of the aspects the Church also takes into account in order to rule about authenticity. There is a HUGE difference between living from the charity of some people or being directly involved in millionaire business. And, sorry, they could have also a job like the rest of us or... just because they see the Virgin every day they can not have a normal job? They have a job yes, in the administration of the money the make out of the pilgrim business.

I will not discuss further. If for you this is OK, fine, for me this is a HUGE RED FLAG.

 

Oddly, how you and Father Rino refuse to discuss the miracles taking place in Medjugorje. Nope, for you two the miracles are an inconvenient truth place that must not be spoken of in order to discredit the Mother of God's work.

 

You have no evidence that miracles are taking place. You have no evidence that the Mother of God is appearing at Medjugorje. Just saying so don't make it so.

Rino has taken a critical view of Medjugorje and rightly so. For this he has been falsely accused by some here of engaging in detract ion, calumny, gossip, etc. This is predictable behavior from the Medjugorje Cult: when they are not being disobedient to the local bishop, they are attacking those who dare to take a critical view of Medjugorje.

How sad.

 

Who said that I am the Father Rino, it's just someone's assumption on an anonymous forum. More precisely man said the priest. And I just said that on this issue in an anonymous forum I do not want to declare.

 

Just wondering if these properties ARE so valuable BECAUSE of the apparitions? Without all the income of pilgrims, would any of these properties be worth a tenth of what they are now? I have to doubt it... My point is that the visionaries may own places that pilgrims are using, but that is not so unusual. If I had hundreds of visitors a day, to pray with me and worship God, I would certainly ask God to help me provide food and shelter for them...

 

My bone of contention is this...so what? Owning property is NOT making money off the apparitions. Owning a hotel or hostel, a center or whatever. These people SPEND themselves traveling talking to pilgrims. How is Ivan suppose to make a living for his family?? Would you rather he live in squalor? MONEY is not a SIN. What you do with it is.

 

David,

I guess you don't want to hear anyone else's side but yours. I have explained one miracle and if you need more just call Mayo Clinic, I suppose you may claim Medj is a "placebo" but you are so filled with pride that you are right you can't even consider the possibility. Medjugorjie cult ? way to label people you disagree with. Talk about a broken record , please try and contribute to something positive like praying for somebody on this forum.

 

Jose and whoever else is fueling this,
Many of us on this forum have been to Medjugorje, have experienced and/or witnessed miracles there, and have rubbed elbows with the visionaries. There are 6 of them, and though I believe them all, it is possible that one or more of them my not be living as humbly as they should from time to time. They are human. I am just saying this as a hypothetical. Their humanity, or their propensity to sin, like all the rest of us, does not prove one thing or another. It does not discredit the entire 32 year Medjugorje event. My two cents!
When we went there we stayed in Mirjana's rooms next to her own house. We did pay to stay there, but the fees were very reasonable and modest for all we received. On several of the days, she served our dinners to us with her own hands, and her daughters helped too. She did have women who cooked too for the large groups, but she came down and helped, like a kind host. She sat and talked with us several times, and she wore clothes that you could buy at any discount department store. She often simply wore her hair back in a hair tie, nothing fancy. Her house is large but not overly extravagant, it is a generational home, as all the homes of the visionaries are, meaning that they have been in their families for generations, and over time are added to and changed to accommodate the growing family, so they can become large. Mirjana's husband DOES have a regular job, as I am sure the spouses of the others do as well. Are they well off? Perhaps, but that allows them to spread the Gospa's message further. In this world, you must have money to do these things. God provides. Many of you know Wayne Weible...read his books and see how God provided him with the money to be able to eventually do NOTHING except spread Mary's messages. If He calls you, then He has to provide means for you to do what He asks of you. If you go to Medjugorje, you will feel the grace and the love that is literally floating in the air there. Do some make money on it all? Absolutely, just like anything else in this world. But there is oh, so much more to Medjugorje, and to the visionaries, than money. What is so cool is that you, we, can go and see for ourselves. If not all the way to Bosnia, then go to a talk when a visionaries is touring, and let your heart decide then. Talk with the visionary yourself, they are very approachable. Blessed are they who have not seen....but if you doubt, then before you throw stones, GO AND SEE!

 

Just my two cents,..but for those who would like to criticize the authenticity of Medjugorje obviously are ignoring the messages of Our Lady,..which is what? Prayer,penance,fasting & the sacaments.
Can you imagine fasting twice a week for over thirty years? I'm lucky if I can do it once a week. When someone has made up their mind about something you can't always change it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the world is in a bad state and Our Lady is trying to prepare us for some great events. But there are those "scientists" who base everthing on externals. God doesn't use the "wise" of the world. He does though use the humble and simple.
So believe what you want...

 

I'm reminded of a comedy bit I saw Robin Williams do once: He pretended to be a man in a bar in New Delhi, well into his cups. "Gandhi? Yeah, I knew Gandhi. He was an ass."

Once again, a prophet is never honored in his home town. Neighbors will always talk. But anyone who doesn't take seriously Padraig's warning, which is the warning of Jesus, not to risk the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit, is a fool, an unbeliever, or both.

 

Yes, the world is in a bad state.

But that does not mean Our Lady is appearing at Medjugorje.

The first voice of authority on any alleged apparition is the local Bishop. After conducting his official investigations, the local Bishop has been consistently negative towards Medjugorje. He has used unequivocal language in condemning Medjugorje which I have quoted in various postings here. Yes, it is true that the matter now is in the hands of the Vatican. But I will bet a pair of dirty socks that the Vatican will not change the decision of the Bishop of Mostar. I could be wrong and I will be obedient to whatever decision is reached.

Now, as to the oft-mentioned "fruits" of Medjugorje, I will repeat something that Howard Kainz has written on the matter much more succinctly than I am capable of writing:

Jesus told us to judge trees by their “fruits.” In Medjugorje, numerous conversions have been reported, Catholics returning to the sacraments after many years, etc. But the main fruit, and the fruit closest to the heart of the devil, has been disobedience. Original sin came into the world not through lust or greed or murder, but through disobedience; and the redemption took place through the obedience of Jesus (Romans 5:19) and the fiat of his mother. In Medjugorje, we are confronted with the counterintuitive phenomenon of the Madonna encouraging disobedience to the successors of the Apostles, and disobedience of some Franciscans to Vatican directives.​

Other “fruits” include the massacres and mutilations that took place from 1991 to 1992 when, because of the war, three groups involved in the pilgrimage trade, losing business, turned on each other, resulting in an estimated 80-140 deaths and 600 expulsions; and the revocation of faculties or laicization of Frs. Zovko and Vlasic, guides of the visionaries accused of sexual infractions. Nine Franciscans were also expelled from the order and a divinis. According to historian Michael Sells, religious nationalists in Medjugorje “cleansed” non-Catholics, destroying an Orthodox monastery and murdering priests and monks. Bishop Perić was kidnapped on April 2, 1994, in retaliation for his criticisms of unauthorized activities in Medjugorje, and released only when the Mayor of Mostar intervened with UN troops.​

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Unlike the approved apparitions, the visionaries at Medjugorje have been consistently disobedient to local bishops.​

• December 19, 1981, Vicka in her Notebook writes that their bishop, Pavao Zanic, was “the more guilty party” in conflict with the Franciscans, and the Gospa defended the Franciscans who were disobeying the bishop’s order to share their parish with secular clergy.
• June 21, 1983, in a letter the visionary Ivan said that the Gospa demanded the Bishop’s “immediate conversion” and that he should stop emphasizing the “negative side”– otherwise she and her Son would punish him.
• February 3, 1985 the Gospa told three visionaries that Fr. Barbaric, whose removal was requested by the bishop, should stay.

According to the German theologian, Manfred Hauke, the Gospa urged disobedience thirteen timesto Bishop Zanic, who had originally been inclined favorably to the apparitions.​

Pilgrims to Medjugorje occasionally report signs, such as the appearance of a gold tint on the chains of their rosaries, and the phenomenon of a “dance of the sun,” in which the sun, seen by the naked eye without causing harm, proceeds up and down in a yo-yo manner, emitting various colors. The latter is obviously construed as a reenactment of the famous “miracle of the sun” at Fatima, on October 13, 1917. “Healing” miracles have been reported, but none have been tested by experts and verified.​

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On June 29, 1981, the Gospa announced that a four-year-old boy would be healed, but this never happened. A sign from heaven predicted by the visionaries for August 17, 1981, never materialized. Ivan, in a signed statement, on May 9, 1982, said that a sign would appear in six months – a “huge shrine in Medjugorje” in memory of the Gospa’s apparitions. But this also never materialized. In 1983 the visionaries said a “visible sign” would be left at Medjugorje in perpetuity. But this has not happened.​

In September, 1981, the prophecy that “Germany and the U.S. will be destroyed,…the Pope will be exiled to Turkey,” never took place. Nor did peace for Yugoslavia predicted by the Gospa during the 80s. Yugoslavia broke up during the Bosnian war, 1992-95, leading to the violent separation of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia.​

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The visionaries allege that they have received secrets from the Gospa. Jakov Colo, Ivan Dragicevic and Ivanka Ivankovic have each received nine, while the others have received all ten. Only one of the secrets has been revealed by the visionaries: Namely, the Gospa’s promise of a “visible sign,” mentioned above.​

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On June 30, 1981, the Gospa said that her appearances would end in three days, but they went on without interruption. As of 2004, over 33,000 messages had been delivered by the Gospa. The number now is around 40,000. Three of the visionaries, Ivan, Vicka and Marija, still have daily visions. We are dealing with a Madonna who, in contrast with the authorized apparitions, has become extremely talkative. If we weren’t referring to heavenly personages, the category of “personality change” would suggest itself.​

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Numerous attempts have been made to subject the visionaries to testing by experts. However, when experts came from various countries in 1984, 1987, 1988, 1992 and 1995, to test the visionaries, they either claimed to be sick, or that Our Lady had “paused” in her appearances, or they simply did not cooperate.​

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During the tests on October 6-7, 1984, of the visionaries during ecstasy, Dr. Philippot, an ophthalmologist, found that the pupil of the visionaries did react to light. Once, when the visionaries were being filmed during ecstasy, a skeptical pilgrim made movements with his two fingers towards the eyes of Vicka in ecstasy, and she reacted by moving her head back; later she explained that this was because she thought the Blessed Virgin was about to drop the baby Jesus, and she wanted to keep him from falling.​

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Both Pavao Zanic and Ratko Perić, the bishops who have had jurisdiction over Medjugorje since 1981, have concluded that the apparitions are not of supernatural origin. Nineteen out of 20 bishops in the Yugoslav Episcopal Conference in 1991 issued the Zadar declaration: “On the basis of investigation up till now, it cannot be established that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.”​

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Beware of the sowers of doubt...

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The Lord does not sow the seed of doubt.

He sows the seed of faith.

The serpent, the most subtle of wild beasts testifies by his own words that he is the sower of doubt in the Word of God. He asked the woman: “Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the tree in the garden?”

Eve answered the serpent with the Word of God: “We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. But the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said: ‘You must not eat it, nor touch it, under the pain of death.’”

When Mary, the New Eve, the Mother of God and Queen of Peace speaks to her children, she bears the Word of God.
The Word of God produces good fruit.
The word of satan, sower of doubt, produces poisoned fruit.
Beware the sowers of doubt... Can one blind man lead another? Surely they will both fall into the pit? (Luke 6 : 39)
Beware the sowers of doubt...
...and then instead of listening to the truth they will turn to myths. (2 Timothy 4 : 4)

 

From Mark Mallett's latest post: Seems fitting to recent discussions demonizing Medjugorje seers who may have acquired some wealth.

NEITHER GOOD NOR BAD
We have to be careful not to demonize material things, as if “not having” is somehow a sign of holiness. St. Francis de Sales once said, So also you can possess riches without being poisoned by them if you merely keep them in your home and purse and not in your heart. —Introduction to the Devout Life, Part III, Ch. 11, p. 153

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I know indeed how to live in humble circumstances; I know also how to live with abundance. In every circumstance and in all things I have learned the secret of being well fed and of going hungry, of living in abundance and of being in need. I have the strength for everything through him who empowers me. (Phil 4:12-13)​

 

Amen, Fatima!

Only the Devil would be capable of sowing doubt and disobedience to the local Bishop.