I can see/understand your point of view PS but most here are Brothers/Sisters in Christ... and we all might get "carried away" on occasion ... but ... we are in perilous times I believe and a major reason for that is People of Faith, Catholic/Protestant/Jew, have these past 50+ years, sat silent while their Churches-n-Societies have been hi-jacked by radicals. Watched while God was removed from Schools, Courthouses and the Public Square...... and Christ removed from Christmas and Easter. Watched while Abortion-n-Sexual Perversion became civil rights and those who objected were demonized. There is a reason why The Storm is upon us and a reason may well be that face in the mirror every morning? So! There is good reason for folks to be excitable and a little less reasonable "These Days"..... be it Church or Civil Business GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
I agree CD, but as catholics we are still called to be charitable in our responses. coming down like a hammer on the lost sheep after the warning will make them scatter again. We must be an extension of our lady after the warning who gently corrects and informs.
Name one perfect Saint...and I bet if you read their story, they will say they are the greatest sinners in the world. Yes, Jesus told the woman to sin no more...but did she sin again. God told you to sin no more...but do you not sin. Your arguments are based on the perfection of saints. Hate to say...there is no perfect Saint. Even though they might try and even come close...they are not perfect. Glad you quoted Peter, he is a very smart guy. We should live Holy and Godly lives. But even the most holiest, sin...might not be great sins but even their little sins are great for a saint. What we should be and what we our, are two different things. If we follow your fire and brimstone spirituality, everyone is going to hell. In my spirituality...it's not black and white. There is great mysteries we don't understand. May God continue to lead you in perfection. My spirituality helps me to understand...I am a sinner in need of grace. May Gods Will be Done And don't take this as holier then thou...we just have different philosophies in our spirituality.
That would have been ok Kathy, but my PM has never worked on this forum except for the first few times. someone can PM me, but I cannot PM them first. Anyhow, I tried my best to reach out. I cut to the chase. I know exactly what she is talking about. Been there, done that. Our Lady spoke to me a long time ago and took me out of error. Praise God. If I can save one soul by telling them this truth then so be it. Pie in the face to me. I never was very good with words. Ask my seven children!
As to the specific situation with Sparrow, I fight shy of going into particular cases of such a sensitive nature on a public forum like this were thousands of people can read these posts. But on Spiritual Direction generally. St Teresa of Avila , a Doctor of the Church remember and pretty well a Genius in matter s of the Spirit had the most enormous difficulty with confessors and Directors and had to shop around for years til lshe settled on a good one, like St John of the Cross. I think in the matter of findng a good confessor. Spiritual Director we can be like birds flying along from tree to tree until we find a good one. That is why I suggest a balance between having a Good Spritual Director and educating ourselves in the Mind of the Church. The two things go together. I had the most tremndous holy and learned Spiritual Director for most of my life , he actually served as Director to other priests (and I think Bishops) and was Diocesan Exorcist. A man of the most profound Orthodoxy and what a I would call a wonderful kind of Spiritual True Grit. He called it always like it was and told people the Truth to their faces. However I remeber a time when he said that he felt he no longer wanted to direct me. When I asked hm why he said he felt my prayer life was belong him tha the had only read about the way I prayed in books and had no experience of Directing people along these paths. Well He kept at it at mu urging but I had to start pretty well libraries of books to keep up and do a degree in Psycholgy and loads of reading their to keep up. I urge all Catholics who take the Spiritual Life seriously to do these two things seriously, to get a good Spritiual Director and to keep well read on the Fiath, the two balance each otehr off. Reading is most important , especially on matters of the Spiritual Life.
There is a wonderful story about all this in the tremendous book by the world's top Mariologist, Rene Laurentin entitled , 'Bernadette'.
You probably recall St Bernadette's Novice Mistress from the film , 'The Song of Bernadette' and how she gave poor Bernadette hell. Mother Maria Teresa Vausou the Novice mistress seemd to have great problems with Bernadette and thought herself called to put the saint through the mill. 'Particularly the Novice Mistress, Mother Maria Teresa Vauzou, caused much spiritual suffering for Bernadette during the 13 years she lived in the convent. Mother Maria Teresa was known for her observant eye and her psychological penetration; but she was never capable of capturing this pure soul’s intimate union with God and total abandonment to the desires of God’s Divine Will that formed her interior life. Bernadette never studied forms of prayer, but spent hours praying, reciting her rosary with great devotion. She lived in perpetual union with the Virgin Mary and with Jesus through Her. ' http://www.piercedhearts.org/theology_heart/life_saints/bernadette.htm St Bernadette with Mother Vazou But Fr Rene gives a wonderful story about this nun. Years after Bernadettes death and the sting of Conscience was htting Mother Vazou for the abominable way she had treated the young saint. So she went into confession to a priest in a small out of the way country Church and asked him about this. The priest told her, quite wrongly that sahe had been right and sent by God to, 'Test', Bernedette's holiness. The poor woman apparently told this to others until she died , apparently believing she had done the roigh thing, when in fact she had been quite wicked. So Spiritual Directors and confessors are fine , but we need to make sure we have an informed conscience as well. God gave us minds and we have to use them. We can see this so well in the Life of St Teresa of Avila , she always seemed to be boning up on things.
This is particulary true in these latter days, when heresy is everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. Matthew 24:12 Witnessing to All Nations …11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.…
Yes, it is black and white. Everyone who dies in the state of grace is a child of God and will be saved. Everyone who commits actual mortal sin and dies unrepentant will not be saved. The quote on Hell was not mine but our Blessed Lord's. This you rather conveniently ignored.
True that is black and white as it comes to judgement but for the sake of clarity to the casual reader the confusion and gray area around this is what is repenting vs not especially if you die in a state of mortal sin without ability to confess. I have always heard from the church that no man knows what happens to a soul in their judgement. We know the rules and law but we don't know the relationship and heart of that soul who dies and goes before God. Plus we also don't know the love and mercy in those moments for God and further what effect an advocate may have on one's judgement like the Blessed Mother for example. I have read countless stories of Mystics or near death experiences that led to conversion (a great living example is Marino Restreppo) where the sentence was hell and the the Blessed Mother came and pleaded with her son for leniency. He cannot refuse His Mother's request. She is our greatest advocate and a great reason why she deserves so much of our love and thanks. Hail Mary!! Indeed!! Here is a great q&a from EWTN: EWTN Catholic Q&A Never seemed right Question from Viv Legende on 06-28-2002: If a person commits a Mortal Sin and has no way of going to confession before his death, he has only one chance of forgiveness: an Act of Perfect Contrition. If this is not made, he goes straight to Hell for all eternity. I'm having so much trouble with this. It is very difficult to accept. How long has this teaching been taught by the Church? Could you please refer me to any sources? Any comments would be nice, too. Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 07-01-2002: This doctrine has been taught since the beginning of the Church. Consider what Jesus had to say about what anger (the desire to harm another) merits. But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna. Matthew 5:22 What does this say, but that a person who commits a mortal sin of anger (as opposed to a venial sin of anger) against another is liable to Hell. It doesn't say he will go to hell (and we should never say that to people who seem to us to be sinners), but that he is liable, could go, to hell. Under what conditions? Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. Matthew 5:25-26 The condition is that we have not settled with our opponent. That means showing mercy and repentance. If we do not show mercy and are not repentant ourselves, then we can expect only justice from God. "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is a prayer God always answers. Thus, applied to the question of our personal judgement before God we can say that if we have unrepented venial sin (and repentance includes repayment or expiation) "prison" for us is purgatory". If we have unrepented mortal sin it is hell, where the debt is never paid, "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:47-48; Isaiah 66:24). Thus, the Catholic Church has always taught with Scripture that unrepentant mortal sinners go to hell. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he ongs. So, the basic lines of the answer to your question is that there is no doubt that unrepentant mortal sinners go to hell. The next question is, then, what constitutes unrepentance. What about the person who can't go to neighbor and say "I wronged you, forgive me". Or, the person who can't get to confession and ask forgivness of God? In fact, the theology of the Church, like God Himself is merciful. The person for whom the impossibility exists to make use of the sacrament or do necessary reparation (clear someone's good name, return stolen goods) is excused from that obligation. So, for example, a person dies without a priest to hear their confession of mortal sin they are excused from the obligation to confess. However, no one is excused from the obligation to repent. Even the person in that situation must be repentant. Repentance is a condition of forgiveness. The final question then is: what is authentic repentance? Is a person repentant who is afraid of being punished? If I go to you and say, "I'm sorry I hit you, but the reason I'm sorry is the policeman at the door wants to haul me off to jail." Would you count my apology sincere, or selfish? This kind of sorrow is based on servile fear, the fear of what its going to cost me in pain and suffering. It can be a starting point, but it not the goal, is not true repentance. The prodigal son started here, thinking to himself that even the servants in his father's house ate better than he was eating. This is called imperfect contrition or attrition. However, by the time he got home his repenance had become authentic repentance, he was sorry because he had offended heaven and his father. This is perfect contrition, sorrow for the offense given, especially to an all-holy God. Thus, the parable of the prodigal son teaches us this distinction. 1453 The contrition called "imperfect" (or "attrition") is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin's ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance. So, what about the person who has fear of hell, imperfect contrition, and no access to the sacrament? He does indeed go to hell. But you mustn't think of this as some trap door where God says, "Gotcha!" God desires the salvation of every human being more than the person himself. However, as we live, so shall we die. The person who dies in this state does so for their lack of cooperation with the grace of repentance offered over and over again. God offers the grace, He does not force the soul, even the dying one, to be disposed to receive it. So, what you have been told by several moderators now is absolutely true. However, it would be scrupulous and lacking in trust in God's Providence to worry that this might happen to ourselves, if in everything else we are trying to live the moral and sacramental life of the faith, even with our many falls. Might it happen to those whom we know and love? Certainly, but only if they prepare for it by a life of indifference to God' grace. God is always faithful and merciful, but He is also always just. God would be violating justice, the truth about repentance and forgiveness, if He forgave those who were not truly sorry. We should never cease to pray and hope, nonetheless, for a miracle of grace, even for desparate sinners. But such a miracle will include the grace of the sinner making an act of perfect contrition. COPYRIGHT 2002 www.ewtn.com
The below is a good-one for this thread today and perhaps a quick mental review of The Divine Mercy message would be efficacious as well?: HeartLight Daily Verse - 24 February 1 John 4:19 Let us therefore love God, because God first hath loved us. Thoughts on today's verse: It's all very simple. God is love. He is its origin, example, and architect. I love because he loved me first. I know how to love because he has demonstrated it. I can love because he made me to have his likeness. He is the fountain, the motivation, and the pinnacle of love. I love because he does, first, last, and always. Prayer: God of comfort, thank you for comforting me with your love. Just as a child learns from parents how to do so many things, I want to learn to love as you do: sacrificially, selflessly, and submissively, so that others may know that they do not have to earn your love, only receive it. In Jesus name I pray. Amen. Visit heartlight.org for more GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
What a God incidence Denis, I was just thinking about what you said and keep on saying about us all having our priorites wrong in the Light of what is coming towards us. That in a sense a lot of what we discuss on the forum is a lot of hot air in Light of the dangers of the immediate future that heads towards us. Someone else sent a message on similiar lines. I wonder when Jesus was in Galillee and knew His time to die on the Cross was drawing close what He thought about it all? I mean did He think about it all the time? Did it occupy all His thoughts? Did it guide and shape all He did? I would say it did, because at one point He talks of the Great Thirst He had till the oblation of the Cross was completed. The same goes for Our Lady , I think thoughts of Calvary never left her. Not in a fearful way or ful lof anxiety but as the source and summit of all that went before. I think we must be the same, recognising we are only pilgrims passing through. ...and passing through so quickly. Our eyes too must be fixed on the Cross. Always. I find myself a little like this , this Lent. Like a stranger in a strange land.
Dear Sparrows, Remember this always; God is leading you through hill and vale. Just like the rest of us! God always has the answer, Do not fear. Keep saying the rosary, Our Lady is leading you. and Jesus is always gentle to those that are sincere. You have a heavy cross! Unite this heavy cross and the humiliations with Jesus's cross and humiliations and do not be afraid. God Bless you, your husband and your family. Please pray for me and my family. The following event described by St John always fills me with great consolation and hope. I hope it does the same for you. John 8:1-11 8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery.5 Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground.7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them,“Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.9 But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her,“Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said,“Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”
You have said it. And you get it. ....And it is not directed to one side or the other of any of these arguments, because "what" is being said on all sides is valid. It's the "how". Whether its those who in their application of Mercy become accused here of abusing it (rightly or wrongly), or those who stand by the Pope and are afraid to be critical of him yet attack those who are (rightly or wrongly), or those who are ultra critical of the Pope (rightly or wrongly), all are usually making good points, and are genuinely trying to apply their Catholic faith. Its the continual style of belittlement and personal attack that evolved, which was not present here before that arrival. I personally didn't come to this forum to participate in, or even read others opinions about the Pope, and these topics and sentiments tend to dominate these days around here. Though I don't gloss over the relevance of the discussion during these times of deception. I just don't know if getting caught up in public arguments on these issues prior to the Warning is going to draw people here during and after.
I guess that an online forum isn't really the proper place to be discussing a personal issue like "Sparrows". It is hard for mercy to be conveyed online. However, letting her dissent from the teaching of the Church go unremarked isn't really an option. I don't blame anyone here for what they said - I can understand the points being made on all sides.
Who knows...this is the Internet. We don't know the truth or the intent of writers. Maybe some people write to cause discord and arguments . Maybe even to try to show how complicated our faith is. One never knows the true intentions. May Gods Will be Done
Garabandal. I was responding to Sparrows complete post. If you have read the post in full, you will find a soul who has very good medical reasons, possibly life threatening for not bearing another child. In that case, in my humble opinion, it would be permitted for Charity and Mercy sake to get sterilised. I would not feel that the husband in this instance should be sterilised, as he does not have a serious medical reason to do so. I am long past the age of reproduction; but did practice NFP by the Grace of God, when younger. I have known many younger friends in Sparrows situation, and for anyone to impose strict rules on younger people in this instance is to use the Law like a battering ram to disturb their peace on their Spiritual journey. Peace.
