Why the Traditional Latin Mass and not the Novus Ordo Mass

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by SgCatholic, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. sunburst

    sunburst Powers

    I may be mistaken Padraig but I think Sg has stated that she attends the Novus Ordo Mass out of necessity. I don't think her argument has anything to do with the validity of the Mass.
    As she keeps saying, read the Ottiviani Intervention
    Why was it so important?
    Why did it go unheeded?
    Why did Pope Paul Vl poll the Bishops about communion in the hand and have most against it but he allowed it anyway?
    There was some connections between Pope Paul the Vl and Bugnini having a big influence on him.
    What was the goals of the reformers and have those goals been met, why so many attending the Novus Ordo Mass treatment of Jesus in the Eucharist like something ordinary?
     
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  2. padraig

    padraig New Member

    OK. :)
     
  3. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    But Sg herself never answered your question.
     
  4. Mario

    Mario Powers

    On a number of occasions, SgCatholic has stated she attends the Novus Ordo during the week because the TLM is available only on the weekends. I assume that if the availability of the TLM was throughout the week she would not attend the Novus Ordo, but obviously she believes it is valid. What I've heard Sg stress is that a springtime for the Church cannot ultimately take place if the Novus Ordo remains the prevailing Liturgy.

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
     
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  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    And what you've heard others stress is that there is not going to be a springtime. There will be the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. But our voices are not considered. And Sg herself has not answered Padraig's question. And I don't think she attends the TLM at all, since it is too hard to find parking.
    I think she should be fair and answer Padraig’s question.
    We keep going in circles over these issues.
    Imho the amount of time and attention given to these same posts is over the top, especially since some of us are not allowed to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I agree. I do not say modernists were not in VatII council. Ofcourse they were, but God is greater than the modernists and the documents show as much. Satan has wanted nothing more than the collapse of his greatest foe, the mass. Jesus body and blood have sustained his church for 2000 years. But, man has chosen modernism and priests, human as they are, have largely chosen the world to serve in what Pope Benedict called the greatest error of our time, Relativism. This is what has given the NO mass its challenges and this comes from bad priests and a willful naive laity.

    The novus ordo and the latin mass have kept the evil one at bay. Well times have changed for the worst as modernism crept into the church. Now we need to focus on the battle at hand and it's not which language spoken at mass. We literally have the Man of Sin walking earth today destroying every soul he can through many means. We better prepare well for this battle at hand because the battle is for souls now and soon the mass will go underground and mass will be public nowhere. This should be our focus now..... speaking Latin won't matter and God will sort it all out in his wisdom and power.
     
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  7. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    I have answered this before, like Mario and sunburst have observed.
    Padraig, you must have missed my post on the Pachamama thread, where there was a discussion of the conditions for validity of the Mass.
    The most variable factor in practice is the priest's (celebrant's) intention. If he intends to do what the Church intends and the matter used and words of consecration are correct, yes, the NO Mass is valid.
    The priests in the church I go to definitely believe in the Real Presence and they give good homilies which are not heretical. I trust that they intend to do what the Church intends at Mass.

    But I believe that the graces are not the same as with a TLM, because the NO mass was crafted to be acceptable to Protestants, and thus departs from the Catholic theology of the mass. (refer to the Ottaviani Intervention for all the ways that it does so and how the graces are lost).

    HH, I am pretty sure you have seen the above post of mine before.
    Why do you still attack me?

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2019
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  8. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    That is not true. The documents Dignitatis Humanae and Nostra Aetate are problematic and break from Tradition.

    As I've been saying, and the good Bishops Schneider and Vigano recently said, these have led to negative consequences like the Pachamama idol worship in the Vatican, the statement that "God wills a diversity of religions' and an unwillingness to 'proselytise' anyone.

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  9. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Thank you, Mario.
    You have said it better than I could have.

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    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2019
  10. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This is not what I said.

    And I do attend the TLM at times, when it is celebrated on weekday nights.

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  11. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I’m not attacking you, Sg. I just want us all to get along, but you discount other people’s posts and get carried away. It’s difficult to share with you. And i think we all need to be accountable for what we do and say. And Padraig asked you a question which you did not answer. That was not my fault.
     
  12. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Yes it is what you said.
     
  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    ok
     
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  14. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    If you already know that I attend NO mass daily and I believe it to be valid, why do you not state that, and instead keep posting that I haven't answered Padraig's question?

    I was also busy and couldn't answer immediately. There's the 12hour time difference, too.

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  15. jerry

    jerry Guest

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  16. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    You are not quoting me in full , and that gives the wrong impression.

    There is only 1 Sunday TLM held at 6pm in the city centre in Singapore.
    My personal situation makes it difficult to attend.
    And there is also limited parking at that church.

    You seem to be insinuating something, though.

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  17. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    right, you did say that you could not park there, I was right

    I understand the personal situation part
    But when two people have responded to you recently, with good intention, you answered both times, “ is that all you got from all that I posted” or something very much like it. That’s what I mean. So before this gets any more confrontational, I will end this.
    Jerry
    Good to hear from you again. How are you doing these days? Been awhile.
     
  18. Mario

    Mario Powers

  19. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This video is probably familiar to many of us here. It's the Jewish Professor from Harvard, Roy Schoeman's testimony about his conversion story.

    The transcript of the relevant part mentioned by Mario is as follows:

    45:04

    so this is a prayer for the conversion of the Jews from the Catholic breviary

    45:09

    for the week of Christian unity in

    45:11

    January, days 6 or 7 of the week, I guess day 6 of the week, for Christian unity is

    45:18

    dedicated to prayer for the conversion of the Jews. In full disclosure, this is the

    45:22

    old form of the breviary
    , I think they've watered down the prayer maybe.. I'm not

    45:28

    gonna say why, but it's nonetheless, is from the Catholic breviary for the

    45:32

    week of Christian unity, and here's the prayer. And again I invite you to pray

    45:37

    along and and maybe to think about the prayer. Oh God,

    45:42

    who manifests your mercy and compassion towards all peoples, have mercy upon the

    45:48

    Jewish race, from the beginning your chosen people. You selected them alone

    45:53

    out of all the nations of the world to be the custodians of your sacred

    45:57

    teachings. From them you raised up prophets and patriarchs to announce the

    46:02

    coming of the Redeemer. You willed that your only Son, Jesus Christ our Lord and

    46:07

    Savior, should be a Jew, according to the flesh born of a Jewish maiden in the

    46:12

    land of Promise. Listen to the prayers we offer you today for the conversion of

    46:17

    the Jewish people. Grant that they may come safely to a knowledge and love of

    46:22

    our Lord Jesus Christ, the Messiah foretold by their prophets and that they

    46:27

    may walk with us in the way of salvation. Amen. Amen and thank you!

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  20. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Another article that highlights how the young, in particular, feel robbed of the traditional faith of the Catholic Church.
    (emphases are mine - SgC)



    A group of young French-Canadian Catholic men are asking their bishops to teach the traditional faith and give the spiritual leadership they say is essential to combat the nihilistic culture that tempts many to despair.

    That includes allowing access to the traditional Latin Mass.

    Twenty-nine men between the ages of 18 to 44, including university students, a doctor and two lawyers, signed an open letter titled “We Ask for Faith: Open Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church in French Canada”.

    [......]

    “We are French Canadians, our roots penetrate deeply in the New World, but also in Europe, even in the soil of France, the eldest daughter of the Church,” the letter says.

    The signatories attest to a “certain bitterness” toward their predecessors, who did not guard the Catholic faith, nor pass it on.

    [......]

    The signatories ask the bishops to give them the “Catholic Faith in its entirety, without sweetener. We ask that our people have access to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a dignified form that gives glory to God.

    [.......]

    One anonymous signer told LifeSiteNews he has “no illusion that the bishops will react positively. But I thought it was important to join the initiators of this letter and I could fully identify myself with the experience described in the letter. You discover the tradition, and you feel like you have been robbed.

    “And the French-Canadian identity is so tied to the Catholic Latin rite that it’s impossible to understand ourselves without looking into it,” he said, adding that he didn’t think “there will be any serious return to the Catholic faith in this land until the bishops propagate and encourage the traditional Latin Mass.”

    “Men need the sight of a God they can fear and love. I can’t fear and love happy-clappy-silly song-feel good religion. If I am going to give my life and die for something, give me something real. Not sugar-coated.”

    [......]

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