Why the Traditional Latin Mass and not the Novus Ordo Mass

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by SgCatholic, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Good point
    More than likely, the Church WILL become very small. We are not going to go backwards now. The time is well past for that. Look forward. The authors of those articles keep hashing and rehashing all of the Modernist woes. We are not going to go backwards no matter how many articles are posted. The purification of the Church is underway.
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  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    The NO is a valid Mass and it is the Ordinary Form of the Mass. Deja vu
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  3. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This is warped thinking.
    To say that if not for the NO mass, there would only be a small remnant left.
    Catholics, lay and clergy alike, left in droves after the NO mass was mandated and the TLM disallowed.

    Your statement makes me suspect that you did not read anything I have posted on this matter.

    I can name 2 documents - Nostra Aetate and Dignitatis Humanae.
    The Assisi Inter-religious gathering and worship, the document that states 'God wills a diversity of religions' and the Pachamama idol worship are all a direct conclusion of these. Both Bp Schneider and Abp Vigano have pointed these out.

    You keep quoting from an unapproved messenger, who had a painting of God made (as seen in his 'vision') and in this painting God looks very suspiciously like the 'messenger' himself!
    Please quote from approved messages only on any thread other than the one which was created to discuss the unapproved seer/ messages.

    So, you believe that once a council is called with the Holy Spirit's inspiration, the prelates in the council cannot err due to Satan's influence on their free will?
    In that case, nothing coming out of the Amazon synod can be wrong either, right? Better listen to them and get some Pachamama idols, agree to married priests, stop 'proselytizing' and baptizing the indigenous people etc.

    We have several approved messages that warn of Satan getting into the Church and to the very top (Our Lady of Good Success, Our Lady of La Salette, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Fatima etc.).
    Pope Paul VI himself said that from some crack, the smoke of Satan had entered the Church.

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2019
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  4. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This is not what I have argued.
    It seems that you are not actually reading my posts but trying to put words into my mouth (writing).

    How many times does it have to be said?
    The argument for the TLM and against the NO mass is NOT based on the validity of the mass.

  5. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Also, as we should be aware, the Exorcist priests always reiterate that the Devil hates Latin.

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  6. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest



    fs save church.jpg

  7. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    This is what matters.

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  8. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

  9. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Sgt, I give you a lot of leeway in your posts. But ll this unsettles me more than a little.
    I have to be careful that what people are posting does not serve to undermine or even attack the Church.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  10. Mario

    Mario Powers

    The advice of Louis Bouyer in 1956 had gone unheeded: “We must not try to provide an artificial congregation to take part in an antiquarian liturgy, but rather to prepare the actual congregations of the Church today to take part in the truly traditional liturgy rightly understood.


    The above excerpt from your posts is very important. I have in my possession the St. Joseph's Missal my Mom used during the last years before the implementation of the Novus Ordo. It allowed my Mom to follow the TLM aided by drawings depicting priestly actions, along with the Latin on the left page and English on the right. There were chapters explaining the meaning of various vestments and also a clear explanation of the purpose and essence of the Holy Mass. I treasure it not just because it was my Mom's but because it enabled Christine to take part in the truly traditional liturgy rightly understood.

    However, in this discussion I also saw a pertinent quote from Pope St. Paul VI discussing one purpose of the liturgical reform:

    ...to win over to a personal involvement in communal prayer the many people used to praying — or not praying — in church as they please; to intensify training in prayer and worship in every congregation, that is, to introduce the faithful to new viewpoints, gestures, practices, formularies, and attitudes, amounting to an active part in religion than many are unused to. In a word, the issue is engaging the people of God in the priestly liturgical life.

    I recall as a child observing various parishioners at the TLM, immersed in their Rosaries or other devotions, apparently content to let their pastor pray the Mass for them. (The very purpose of my Mom's missal was to correct this incorrect praxis). Now the following is a personal opinion, but I also believe the only reason a parishioner should step aside from the Sacred Liturgy in order to confess their sins is when the Holy Spirit has pricked their conscience to realize they are in the state of mortal sin. Normally, to mix the sacraments is unwise; Confession should take place sometime before Holy Mass. One must realize we are in the heavenly realm as the angels present our Offering before the very throne of God! There should be our attention and focus!

    Finally, my last highlight from the Pope above puzzles me. The priesthood of the faithful is realized when using a missal such as my Mom did, we enter into the Holy Sacrifice with our minds and hearts attentive in prayer as we follow the priest who acts in persona Christi. It appears that Pope St. Paul VI no longer found that believable. How sad.

    Thank you for sharing, especially your posts describing the horrors of the English Reformation; they greatly moved me and make me appreciate all the more the courage of the English martyrs.

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  11. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I don’t think that SgC’s posts are sharing at all. They seem completely one-sided to me, to speak frankly. And with charity.
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  12. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    The "troubles" of the liturgy, did NOT come from the Novus Ordo, but from bad priests who arbitrarily modified parts of the liturgy over the years into their own likening. I have seen beautify NO masses and I have seen some that were not pleasing to our Lord. A badly said mass, had nothing to do with it being in the vernacular, but being said with private interpretations and modifications. Bottom line, the Novus Ordo Mass is every bit as holy of a sacrifice as the Latin Mass is. God is present in Eucharist either way. You are troubled with the times, as if only everyone were to participate in the Latin Mass, it would save the day. Its not going to happen! Perhaps you will get your wish after the purification and era of peace come, but it won't be before.
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  13. Mario

    Mario Powers

    I believe the Vatican II Council was called by the Holy Spirit through Pope John the XXIII. But I can say that the composition in parts of Nostra Aetate and Dignitatis Humanae was vague enough that modernists were able to assert falsehoods that have resulted in appalling consequences. This was one of the ways the Catholics have been deceived into believing the lies, deception, and the words of Satan. To say modernists had no role in the final drafts of some parts of the Council documents would be extreme. The fact that the evangelization of the Jews virtually stopped post-Vatican II can be explained in large part to the influence of Nostra Aetate.

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
  14. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Mario, I believe that the evangelization of the Jews was stopped partially because the Jewish people objected to it. Partially. Mario, basically what you have just said agrees with what we have been saying here, that the Council was not to blame, but Modernists who manipulated and insinuated themselves into the Church caused the problems. Vatican II was called by the Holy Spirit through Pope John XXIII. Yes. If we don't accept that, then we are in some form of rupture from the Catholic Church. That is my concern here. That, and the over the top amount of posts to the contrary. At least, it seems that way to me, barring some clarification.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  15. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Please tell me how I have said anything different from what Abp Vigano and Bp Schneider are now saying.

    I am not attacking the Church, but trying to show the reasons why we should return to the TLM, instead of aiming for a reform of the NO mass.

    And my line of thought is similar to that of the good Bishops mentioned above, that Vatican II produced some documents which break from the Tradition of the Catholic Church.

    Those who don't agree should address the individual points I have brought up, instead of falling back on the same old general arguments which cannot stand.

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  16. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    In the following article, another problem with the Vatican II documents, Lumen Gentium and Nostra Aetate is highlighted.
    Is Cardinal Burke wrong?

    Cardinal Burke Sets Record Straight: Muslims and Christians Do Not Worship Same God

    Michael J. Matt | Editor
    Thursday, June 15, 2017

    An American Catholic Cardinal has finally lent voice to an obvious truth that has eluded our virulently-politically correct society: Christianity and Islam do not worship the same God.

    “I hear people saying to me, well, we’re all worshipping the same God, we all believe in love,” Cardinal Leo Raymond Burke, an archbishop who once served at the highest court at the Vatican, said at a teleconference introducing his new book on Christian theology.

    Making a clear distinction between the two most popular monotheistic faiths, Burke argued that Islam’s God “is a governor.” In contrast, Christianity’s God is “giver of revelation,” Burke explained, saying that for Catholics, God’s law is written “on our hearts” and “we’re given a divine grace to live according to that law.”

    “I don’t believe it’s true that we’re all worshipping the same God, because the God of Islam is a governor,” he elaborated. “In other words, fundamentally Islam is, Sharia is their law, and that law, which comes from Allah, must dominate every man eventually.”

    Warning parishioners about the dangers of cultural relativism, Burke stated that Christians have to proactively assert the truth about their faith without giving credence to politically correct distortions. READ FULL STORY HERE

    REMNANT COMMENT: This, of course, flies directly in the face of the prevailing novel teachings of the Second Vatican Council, which in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium declared:

    The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

    The Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, is even more specific:

    The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

    And Pope John Paul II reiterated this novelty on many occasions, perhaps most notably in his August 19, 1985 address to young Muslims in Morocco:

    Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.

    Cardinal Raymond Burke is going where few high-ranking churchmen have dared to go over the past half-century. He is now challenging key elements of the post-conciliar regime of novelty, making him without doubt one of the most courageous cardinals in the Church today. Pray for him, and ask God to watch over and protect him always.

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  17. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    You are mistaken.
    The Ottaviani Intervention was NOT a critique of the 'private interpretations and modifications' of the NO mass, but of the essential elements in the Novus Ordo Missae itself.
    It departs from the Catholic Theology of the Mass as formulated by the Council of Trent.
    Please read the Ottaviani Intervention.

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  18. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Do you believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is a real mass? That the Bread and Wine are Transubstantiatied..that it is a Valid Mass?
  19. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    It seems likely that in the aftermath of the coming storm and as a consequence of the triumph of the Immaculate heart of Mary the Church will have to hold a new council to correct all of the present errors that have taken root as a result of modernism.

    It seems likely that Liturgy will be high on the agenda -- we can debate this ad nausea but ultimately it will take a council to sort it out!

    We can only pray for such a day when errors are corrected and discipline returns.

    I am a great believer in strong leadership - the shepherd has a duty to lead the flock!

    At present the sheep are scattered for a want of leadership - the Church has become too feminised & and we see this clearly in documents like Amoris Laetitia which contain a mixture of fanciful psychobabble and banal theology.

    I long for the return of a masculine Church.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  20. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

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