Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

  2. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Reading I...The first reading from todays Holy Mass 8th October 2021
    Jl 1:13-15; 2:1-2
    Gird yourselves and weep, O priests!
    wail, O ministers of the altar!
    Come, spend the night in sackcloth,
    O ministers of my God!
    The house of your God is deprived
    of offering and libation.
    Proclaim a fast,
    call an assembly;
    Gather the elders,
    all who dwell in the land,
    Into the house of the LORD, your God,
    and cry to the LORD!
    Michael Pio, Xavier, Blizzard and 9 others like this.
  3. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member


    BOMBSHELL—New internal CDF information shows Pope Francis flagrantly lying about bishops’ TLM survey
    The full transcript of Diane Montagna's revelatory lecture at the Catholic Identity Conference 2021, held in Pittsburgh this past weekend, has just been published at The Remnant, enriched with additional material. "Traditionis Custodes: Separating Fact from Fiction" includes extensive quotations from the internal CDF document in which the bishops who responded predominantly spoke favorably of Summorum Pontificum and the TLM in their dioceses (some even requested help with establishing the Mass). It also includes inside information about the crooked path by which Traditionis Custodes was pre-designed, with the survey used as a convenient screen for a foreordained decision.


    "Sometimes things are not as they seem. And sometimes, there are two 'realities': one that is officially given by those in power, and one that we then discover to be the truth....

    "According to Pope Francis, the consultation of bishops played a fundamental role in his decision to severely restrict the traditional Mass. As he said himself, the results so 'preoccupied and saddened' him, that they 'persuaded' him to 'intervene.' And he ordered that the decree take immediate effect. Following the promulgation of Traditionis Custodes, considerable speculation was therefore swirling about the survey, but the Vatican has not published its results....

    "But does Traditionis Custodes truly reflect what the real situation is? Was the survey on which Pope Francis said he based his decision a fair consultation of the world’s bishops? Would this consultation be considered fair if some of the content of Traditionis Custodes had already been suggested during a plenary meeting of the CDF, at the end of January 2020, that gave way to a consultation that was meant to justify the decisions reached in Traditionis Custodes? Could it be called fair if it came to light that there was a second, parallel report created within the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, which was completed before all the responses from bishops had been received by the CDF? And could it be called fair if Traditionis Custodes did not accurately represent the main, detailed report prepared for Pope Francis by the CDF’s fourth section, i.e., the former Ecclesia Dei? Many people, in fact, knew that this report was being prepared.

    "Let’s examine what has now come to light about each of these three questions."

    Thank you, Diane Montagna, for your tireless work in uncovering the truth, unsavory as it too often is, of what is really going on in the Vatican. (Read the whole exposé here.)

    Now a word to Diane and any Vaticanistas who have access to the CDF internal report: please, for the love of God and the love of Holy Mother Church, find a way to publish this report IN FULL, so that all the world can see the lies exposed, and with them, the mettle of the people who are assaulting the tradition of the Roman Church. Its full publication would be as great a moment of clarity as Archbishop Viganò's McCarrick revelations in August 2018. This is an urgent duty of conscience: the pontifical secret cannot be invoked for hiding malice and mendacity.
    Michael Pio, Clare A and Don_D like this.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  5. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  6. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Transcript of very important / relevant quotes from Bishop Schneider: D113A8A4-95A5-4B99-BCF6-CA45910F1901.jpeg 0455E4C4-91D5-4365-A941-026B2F99EB6D.jpeg 91DB68F5-54DA-4853-BECD-6EE87C745CC6.jpeg
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  7. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us, too.” —Pope Benedict XVI, Letter to the Bishops of the World, July 7, 2007. This was a letter of clarification which Benedict wrote to explain why he had issued the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum on that same day, 14 years ago (link)

    "The response of Catholics to this draconian and unjust motu proprio(Traditionis custodes) has been much thoughtful analysis, but also an outpouring of prayer. And already, in only three months, the truth is being revealed." —a commenter named "Sonny's mom" at this link; it is the 17th comment down


    Letter #131, 2021, Monday, October 11: The story behind Traditionis custodes

    Feast of Pope John XXIII


    Today's letter contains a fascinating story (here in English, and here, in Italian) by American Catholic journalist and writer Diane Montagna.

    This may be the most important story of the year for Catholics, the Catholic Church, and this papacy, and for this reason, Montagna, an old friend, is to be applauded for her work.


    It is a story of what seem clearly to be distortions and manipulations at the highest levels of the Vatican, covered up until now, revealed by Montagna on the basis of solid documentary evidence.

    Montagna's report should be read by all Catholics, especially by those on the "progressive" side, because it reveals why Catholics on the "conservative" side feel abused and deceived by recent decisions of Pope Francis on liturgical matters of profound importance to their spiritual lives.

    Such Catholics feel deceived because, if what Montagna reports is true — and it seems to be true — they have, in fact, been deceived.

    The consultative process leading to the issuing of Traditionis custodes was presented by the Vatican as fair and above board.

    But this research shows that the process was, in fact, not fair, transparent and above board.

    The process, this research shows, was tendentious, opaque, unfair.

    Pope Francis himself was, it seems, manipulated, in order that he might give his signature to a document in which the facts of the matter were not represented to him in an accurate way.

    Pope Francis needs to be told about this research by Montagna.


    The essence of the story

    By a very careful reading of unpublished Vatican documents that Montagna managed to obtain in recent months, she has been able to show convincingly that, when Pope Francissigned the July 16 decree Traditionis custodesto suppress the celebration of the Mass in the old Tridentine rite, he had not been fully and honestly informed by his advisors about the results of surveys that had been done throughout the world on the pros and cons of continuing to follow the "compromise solution" in liturgical proposed by Pope Benedict XVI in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum of July 7, 2007.

    In that 2007 solution, Benedict affirmed that the old liturgy was profoundly holy and worthy to be celebrated perpetually as the "extraordinary form" of the liturgy of the Church, and that all priests were free to celebrate Mass in that form, because it is essentially good.

    But in his July 16, 2021 decree Traditionis custodes, Pope Francis said that the results of surveys taken by the Vatican around the world had shown that the "Benedict solution" was not working very well, that it was causing problems and divisions, and that, therefore, he had decided to suppress the old liturgy.

    Francis wrote in Traditionis custodes: "In line with the initiative of my Venerable Predecessor Benedict XVI to invite the bishops to assess the application of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum three years after its publication, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith carried out a detailed consultation of the bishops in 2020. The results have been carefully considered in the light of experience that has matured during these years. At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion."

    So Francis says the results of the 2020 consultation of the world's bishops were "carefully considered."

    Also on July 16, Francis wrote in an accompanying explaining his thinking in Traditionis custodes: "With the passage of thirteen years, I instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to circulate a questionnaire to the Bishops regarding the implementation of the Motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. The responses reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene. Regrettably, the pastoral objective of my Predecessors, who had intended 'to do everything possible to ensure that all those who truly possessed the desire for unity would find it possible to remain in this unity or to rediscover it anew,' [12] has often been seriously disregarded. An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division."

    So Francis says the responses to the questionnaire sent out to the bishops "reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene."

    Thus it seems clear that Francis did in fact decide to issue Traditionis custodes on the basis of the results of this survey as they were reported to him, results that "saddened" him because they focused on the "disunity" that his advisors told him was being caused by the love of the old liturgy.

    Jason Fernando likes this.
  8. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member



    Now what Montagna has shown is that Pope Francis was likely himself deceived, and that the surveys he refers to do not show the problems and divisions that Francis tells us he was advised they do show.

    The bottom line here is this: Montagnashows that the reasons put forward for the decree Traditionis custodes are reasons without a solid basis in fact, baseless reasons.

    This casts grave doubt on the credibility and, indeed, the validity of this document.

    It suggests that, if Pope Francis had known of the evidence Montagna has uncovered, he would have recognized that his own advisors had not served him well, and would not have issued Traditionis custodes.

    Based on this analysis of the actual data by Montagna, Traditionis custodes should seemingly now be seen as a document conceived, drafted and promulgated based on manipulated, or misinterpreted, data.

    And, if this is the case, Francis might rightly declare Traditionis custodes to have been vitiated from the very moment of the decision to prepare and issue it, and so a document he might rightly declare null and void, and withdraw.

    Here below is the complete text of the Montagna investigation of the seeming manipulation behind Traditionis custodes.


    First, a letter on this story

    I received the following letter on this story from Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, an expert on the Church's liturgy, a graduate of Thomas Aquinas College in California and of the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.:

    October 8, 2021

    Dear Robert,

    I was present when Diane gave this talk at the CIC (Catholic Identity Conference) in Pittsburgh last weekend (October 2 and 3). To describe the room of 700+ as electrified would be an understatement. (...) This exposure of shameless mendacity marks a new low-point in the three years since the McCarrick revelations. It is all of a piece, an entirely consistent record in which the occasional sops thrown to Catholic believers serve as distractions from the real business at hand, which is laying the groundwork for the suppression of all the elements distinctive of Catholicism prior to the Second Vatican Council, and indeed, of anything Catholic that survived the Council, such as John Paul II's pellucid moral theology and Benedict XVI's rich liturgical theology.

    You may quote any of the above. By the way, I've known Diane for over twenty years. She was a student in my courses at the International Theological Institute (in Austria) in the early 2000s. She became a close personal friend of my wife and me, and then the goddaughter of our daughter. Her integrity is pristine and rigorous. She would never report any of this without having the actual CDF report in her hands and verified from trustworthy Vatican sources.

    —Dr. Peter A. Kwasniewski


    Editor’s Note by Remnant Editor Michael Matt: This talk, delivered at the Catholic Identity Conference on October 3, 2021, has been edited by the author for print. —MJM





    The Hidden Story behind Traditionis Custodes (link)

    by Diane Montagna (photo left)

    “Nothing is hidden that shall not be made manifest, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light” (Lk 8:17).

    [Note: Everything below is by Diane Montagna; the sections which follow the large red quotation marks are callouts from her article.]

    Read Diane’s article at the Remnant link
    Beth B and Xavier like this.
  9. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Diane’s article at the link is a must read!!!
  10. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  11. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

    Xavier, HeavenlyHosts and andree like this.
  12. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    I don’t have any inside information but I suspect this was his own agenda all along. The idea he was “lied to” is a way of giving him an “out” in my opinion, so he can correct the situation without losing face.
    Michael Pio, Beth B, Byron and 2 others like this.
  13. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Let’s pray he corrects the situation ASAP.

  14. Yes, he will just backtrack if there is too much opposition...
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  15. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  16. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

  17. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

  18. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    I agree. He can reverse this now and save face. If he doesn’t, then he wants this…and probably did all along. If he lets this stand, the division this is causing will escalate…but he knows this….
    BrianK and Jason Fernando like this.
  19. Xavier

    Xavier "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will Triumph."

    Faithful Laity: We Will Never Give Up the Latin Mass

    Editor’s note: beyond theological debates, beauty can communicate to the hearts of all why we will never give up the Latin Mass. Please share these videos, subscribe to Una Voce’s channel, and bookmark their website to join the work of this apostolate, one of the founding organizations of the Trad movement.

    Since its beginning in 1965, even before the New Mass was promulgated, the Fœderatio Internationalis Una Voce has gathered together laypeople from all around the world with the aim to ensure that the traditional Roman rite of the Church is maintained in the Church and to safeguard and promote the use of Latin, Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony, and all the sacred, artistic, literary and musical traditions of the Roman Church in all their beauty and integrity.

    Faithful Laity: We Will Never Give Up the Latin Mass

    Editor’s note: beyond theological debates, beauty can communicate to the hearts of all why we will never give up the Latin Mass. Please share these videos, subscribe to Una Voce’s channel, and bookmark their website to join the work of this apostolate, one of the founding organizations of the Trad movement.

    Since its beginning in 1965, even before the New Mass was promulgated, the Fœderatio Internationalis Una Voce has gathered together laypeople from all around the world with the aim to ensure that the traditional Roman rite of the Church is maintained in the Church and to safeguard and promote the use of Latin, Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony, and all the sacred, artistic, literary and musical traditions of the Roman Church in all their beauty and integrity.

    The Una Voce movement has always worked on the basis of local efforts capable of adapting to varied circumstances. During the last 56 years, its members have tirelessly working to increase the number of places where the Usus Antiquior is celebrated, and most of them know how difficult it has been. They have also been threatened and discouraged all these years by frequent restrictions, misconceptions, and prejudices. But in their hearts, they have always been happy to fight the good fight, even while knowing that they may not see the day where the old Missal becomes dully recognized and widely celebrated again in the whole church. But they all know it will.

    Today once again, after a period of an apparently improving situation, we are labelled as divisive, stubborn, nostalgic people, and other epithets. But these insults do not represent who we are. The falsity of this old-fashioned name-calling becomes clear when you see how many different people fall in love with the Traditional Mass. We come from all parts of the world. From Japan to Argentina. From South Africa to Norway. From China to Venezuela. We are old people and young people; students, farmers, entrepreneurs, unemployed, migrants, teachers, artists, mothers, fathers, poor and rich people. Everyone can come and join. For most of us it is not about re-fighting the battles of 50 years ago; we have simply discovered something, the liturgical treasure of the Church, whose spiritual value has bourn real fruit in our lives and in our communities.

    In these times even the most modern have frenetic “upgrades,” “updates,” “new versions,” and things become “obsolete,” “deprecated,” “antiquated” and “disposable.” In these times in which we are always required to produce more and new things, where the present and future are in perpetual change, we find in the old Mass our spiritual home. We participate in a liturgy that doesn’t need a permanent quest for “updates” because the traditional rites and symbols can show us the immanent love of Christ on the Cross, the love for which our souls have always aimed. It is the place where we rediscover the past and encounter the future. It is not nostalgia, on the contrary, it is the hope it gives us, that will make us never give up the old Mass.

    Recently, with the restrictions that have been imposed on us in the motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, like the ones forbidding us to use our parochial churches or discouraging the creation of new groups, we feel we are treated like undesirable, second-class Catholics. It is unjust, but, with God’s help, we will endure those trials. It is difficult not to remember when the apostles were asked not to talk, but, what was their response? “We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard” (Acts 4:20).

    Besides the sadness, frustration, and incomprehension that we are facing, Una Voce wants to encourage all the laypeople attached to the Traditional Latin Mass, to make an extra effort to share with more people the reasons why we say yes to the Usus Antiquior, and why we won’t give it up.

    Among many things, the people attached to the Usus Antiquior are those who say yes to the sacredness, yes to tradition, yes to what the Church has always taught, yes to the silence, yes to kneeling when receiving Our Lord, yes to praying oriented towards God, yes to adapt ourselves to the liturgy, and not the other way around. Yes to love our priest, the bishops, and the Pope. All of those things help us to say yes to our daily crosses. It is important to go and speak with respect to our Bishops, Priests, brothers, and sisters and share what we have seen and heard.

    With the aim to help with this, Una Voce has produced a series of short videos about some of the reasons why we love the Traditional Mass. The Silence, Sacred Music, worship Ad Orientem, etc… These videos were recorded using several languages, and people from many different backgrounds and countries helped to make them. You will hear testimonies from common families, professional musicians, personalities like Joao Silveira, secretary of the Summorum Pontificum Pilgrimage committee, Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, Dr. John Pepino, Gregory DiPippo, and many more. All of them trying to summarize what we often want to say about the Sacred Liturgy but often don’t know how to.

    These versions have English subtitles, we will be soon releasing the videos with subtitles in other languages as well. We are also starting to share small resolution versions that can be sent through Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp etc. If you receive one of these messages, please forward them to your contacts. Feel free to copy and share these YouTube videos on your social media networks or in the best way you consider to help the cause. ¡Viva Cristo Rey!
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  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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