Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. Muzhik

    Muzhik Powers

    Whew! You had me going for a minute, there!
  2. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I have found it very helpful recently listening to the life of St Robert Bellermine, especially as regards to the goings on of Pope's.

    Some great stuff on utube.
    AED likes this.
  3. Whatever

    Whatever Powers

    Unless the monarch is George Soros who wouldn't be on Orban's Christmas card list but his Open Society Foundation is a big hit with Cardinal Maradiaga.
    Mary's child and Don_D like this.
  4. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Father Hunwicke quoted the words of an anglo-catholic theologian, a man called Dix, in a recent post. The latter described the symbol of a bishop as a 'crook' and that of an archbishop as a 'double cross'. Had me chuckling, but was it Saint Athanasius who informed us of the construction details of the Road to Hell?
    Beth B and AED like this.
  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Beth B and AED like this.
  6. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!


    More Francis on "Traditionis custodes": To a new visiting group of French bishops, Francis says, "Yes, I did it thinking about the USA." (And additional important information.)

    To the first group of French bishops in the periodical "ad limina" visit to Rome, Francis said, "Basta!" -- enough.

    This morning, Francis met a new group of French Bishops, including the Archbishops of Paris, Abp. Michel Aupetit, and of Lyon, Abp. Olivier de Germay. Famille Chrétienne reveals the details:

    Several French bishops were received for a particularly long audience - two hours and twenty minutes - and were able to have a frank exchange with Pope Francis on September 23. They were from the provinces of Paris, Lyon and Clermont-Ferrand, who came to Rome for the ad limina visits ...

    "What interested the Pope was to discuss with us informally," Archbishop Aupetit of Paris told reporters a few hours after the exchange. "It was our questions that fueled this dialogue, in a very simple and fraternal way." ...

    The thorny motu proprio Traditionis Custodes

    Not surprisingly, among the topics discussed was the delicate implementation of the motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, which drastically regulates the celebration of Masses according to the pre-conciliar form. "The Pope said that what he wanted to do was to restore the unity of the Church by fighting against the ideology that he feared would appear," said the Archbishop of Paris. Confirming rumors that the pope was targeting specific countries with these strict measures, Archbishop Aupetit reported that Francis had mentioned risks "particularly in the United States, Switzerland, and a little in France." And the archbishop of Paris added: "Which is not false." He himself took restrictive measures in his diocese in September.

    Pope Francis insisted during the audience that the key word in his motu proprio is the responsibility of bishops. The Archbishop of Lyon, who wanted to clarify this point, told the Pope that he felt it was important to take into account the specificities of their diocese, in other words, the more or less good relations they have with the "trad" communities, when making decisions. "We know very well that among those who are attached to the Extraordinary Form, there is a risk of separation for some," said Abp. Olivier de Germay. "But this is not the case for all." I said to him, "In Amoris Laetitia, you invite us to take into account the diversity of situations. Here, we should do the same thing." While he expected the pope to confirm this view, the latter, "said he agreed," concludes Abp. de Germay. "He sent us back to our role as bishops, telling us it was up to us to take responsibility."

    When asked by Abp. Aupetit if a parish where both forms of the rite were celebrated could continue to exist, the Pope also answered in the affirmative. The Parisian prelate acknowledged that the Pope's "decree" had "put things in order" and had allowed him to realize the existence of clandestine actions in his diocese.

    We deeply thank Archbishop Olivier de Germay, of Lyon, Primate of the Gauls, for speaking up in favor of Traditional Catholics. Thank you!

    On the other hand, Abp. Aupetit is obviously itching to be named a Cardinal: shame on you! La honte!

    (Source: Famille Chrétienne. Emphases added by Rorate)
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.
  7. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

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  8. Claves.Sancti.Petri

    Claves.Sancti.Petri Archangels

    I'm going to try and go to the Extraordinary Form of Mass every Sunday. I go after my overnight shift. I find it much more efficacious then the Novus Ordo with the much more prayers said and form etc. Fr ripperger talked about this. Our priest has really long homilies which can be tough not to fall asleep after the all night shift but I'm offering it up. I go to a Latin Mass in Boston. I will go to the Novus Ordo during the week when I can and adoration. I'm trying to not make excuses to miss the extraordinary form anymore especially due to the healing I get from it.
  9. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    You are very blessed!
    Michael Pio, AED and Jo M like this.
  10. Claves.Sancti.Petri

    Claves.Sancti.Petri Archangels

    He's a wonderful priest. If your ever in Boston check out the Latin Mass at the Cathedral.
    Ella, Jo M and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  11. Michael Pio

    Michael Pio Archangels

    Awesome, praise God.
  12. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    The pope outright lied. E34BBF8C-BBA9-4B13-B125-B42C72980340.jpeg 3B760205-9255-427D-9942-6D959216D4A1.jpeg 739CF658-D9B7-4FF6-872B-61F388A8A956.jpeg BEF1AB8B-6C7C-43F9-A6B7-BC5BA74A1D3A.jpeg
    Jo M, HeavenlyHosts and AED like this.
  13. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Mary's child, AED and Clare A like this.
  14. AED

    AED Powers

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  15. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    The truth is coming out.
  16. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  17. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Let those who have eyes, see, and those who have ears, hear:

  18. AED

    AED Powers

    I have often thought of this prophecy from ACE in recent months--especially as things in the Church turn darker with this mandate. Our bishop will not grant religious exemptions because "the Pope has spoken." The pressure on priests who refuse to vsx must be enormous.
  19. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Excellent summary article. Read the rest at the link.


    Thursday, October 7, 2021
    TRADITIONIS CUSTODES: Separating Fact from Fiction
    Written by Diane Montagna

    The Hidden Story behind Traditionis Custodes

    “Nothing is hidden that shall not be made manifest, nor anything secret
    that shall not be known and come to light” (Lk 8:17).

    Sometimes things are not as they seem. And sometimes, there are two “realities”: one that is officially given by those in power, and one that we then discover to be the truth.

    When, on July 16, 2021, Pope Francis promulgated Traditionis Custodes, restricting the traditional Latin Mass, he said that according to the results of a recent Vatican consultation of bishops, the norms of his predecessors Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, had been exploited by some who attend the traditional Latin Mass to sow dissent from the Second Vatican Council.

    In the apostolic letter, Pope Francis writes in regard to the survey of bishops:

    “In line with the initiative of my Venerable Predecessor Benedict XVI to invite the bishops to assess the application of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum three years after its publication, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith carried out a detailed consultation of the bishops in 2020. The results have been carefully considered in the light of experience that has matured during these years.”

    He continues:

    “Having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion. Therefore, I have considered it appropriate to establish the following:”

    Pope Francis then proceeds to outline the new restrictions to the Traditional Latin Mass.

    The article I published in the Remnant on June 1, 2021, which described what was in the first and third drafts, was given to Pope Benedict XVI. One reliable source told me afterward that the pope emeritus was “shocked.” It is therefore difficult to believe that he was consulted in any meaningful way.

    Along with the decree, Pope Francis also issued an accompanying letter, addressed to the bishops of the world. He introduced it by noting that, as Benedict XVI had done with Summorum Pontificum in 2007, he too wished to explain the “motives that prompted [his] decision” to restrict the Traditional Latin Mass.

    First among them, he says, are the results of the survey sent to bishops worldwide by the CDF. Pope Francis explains:

    “I instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to circulate a questionnaire to the Bishops regarding the implementation of the Motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. The responses reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me and persuades me of the need to intervene. Regrettably, the pastoral objective of my Predecessors, who had intended ‘to do everything possible to ensure that all those who truly possessed the desire for unity would find it possible to remain in this unity or to rediscover it anew’, has often been seriously disregarded. An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”

    According to Pope Francis, then, the consultation of bishops played a fundamental role in his decision to severely restrict the traditional Mass.

    Based on these results, Pope Francis concludes that:

    “In defense of the unity of the Body of Christ, I am constrained to revoke the faculty granted by my Predecessors. The distorted use that has been made of this faculty is contrary to the intentions that led to granting the freedom to celebrate the Mass with the Missale Romanum of 1962.”

    Further on in the accompanying letter, yet another reference is made to the results of the questionnaire. Pope Francis says:

    “Responding to your requests, I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique [unica] expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.”

    According to Pope Francis, then, the consultation of bishops played a fundamental role in his decision to severely restrict the traditional Mass. As he said himself, the results so “preoccupied and saddened” him, that they “persuaded” him to “intervene.” And he ordered that the decree take immediate effect.

    Following the promulgation of Traditionis Custodes, considerable speculation was therefore swirling about the survey, but the Vatican has not published its results.

    Would it make sense to think that Traditionis Custodes was just the result of the consultation with the world’s bishops, when we now know that in late January 2020, a plenary session of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith took place, where three cardinals were already laying the groundwork for the July 16, 2021 Motu Proprio?

    A CDF superior speaks out

    Four days later, on July 20, 2021, an interviewappeared in the National Catholic Reporter, in which CDF superior, Archbishop Augustine DiNoia, who serves an adjunct secretary in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, voiced his support for the official narrative set forth by Pope Francis, saying that his accompanying letter “fearlessly hits the nail on the head: the traditional Latin Mass movement has hijacked the initiatives of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI to its own ends.”

    Questions Arise

    But does Traditionis Custodes truly reflect what the real situation is? Was the survey on which Pope Francis said he based his decision a fair consultation of the world’s bishops? Would this consultation be considered fair if some of the content of Traditionis Custodes had already been suggested during a plenary meeting of the CDF, at the end of January 2020, that gave way to a consultation that was meant to justify the decisions reached in Traditionis Custodes? Could it be called fair if it came to light that there was a second, parallel report created within the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, which was completed before all the responses from bishops had been received by the CDF? And could it be called fairif Traditionis Custodes did not accurately represent the main, detailed report prepared for Pope Francis by the CDF’s fourth section, i.e. the former Ecclesia Dei? Many people, in fact, knew that this report was being prepared.

    Let’s examine what has now come to light about each of these three questions…
  20. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come


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