Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. Ananchal

    Ananchal Vigilans

    Anyone know a good canon lawyer that can reconcile The statement by Pope Saint Pius V and the current statement Pope Francis?

    These are the kinds of things that make look at Pope Francis and go hmmm(n)

    And still looking for the vomit emogi - I think I’m going to need it more often as we move forward in time l :cautious:
     
  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Good post
     
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  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    It is my understanding that a Pontiff cannot bind a future Pontiff.

    There have, in fact, been many changes made to the Latin Mass since that proclamation was made. Up until Vatican II however they were only small alterations. I don't know exactly how that quote from Pope Saint Pius V is meant to be taken. Perhaps it only referred to certain portions of the Mass, such as the Consecration.

    One thing I learned on this forum is that we need to be very careful about taking quotes out of context and without proper understanding of all of the theological ramifications. I am guilty of this myself.
     
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  4. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Mea culpa, I am guilty as well. I think we should wait for clarification about the Pope’s ability to bind a future Pope, or not.
     
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  5. themilitantcatholic

    themilitantcatholic Principalities

    Inside the mind of a pope:

    Homosexuals - who am I to judge?
    Extraordinary Form - Shame on you!

    Seemingly in an instant, Catholicism has been ushered into a new era, somewhat like being behind an iron curtain where the faithful must now make a futile attempt at being granted permission from the Stasi. Seems rather peculiarly “rigid” doesn’t it?
     
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  6. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

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  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    You're welcome HH. (y)

    Here is more on what Pope St. Pius V laid out in 1570 (Near the middle of the article)
    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-it-a-doctrine-or-a-discipline

    The relevant part:

    Another common example within the Church today concerns the changes to the way the Mass is celebrated that were promulgated by Pope Paul VI in the late 1960s. There are some today who question the pope’s authority to institute the liturgical changes he did because they claim that in 1570, Pope St. Pius V defined certain elements of the Mass’s celebration as doctrine. Pius’ directives were promulgated “in perpetuity” and are said by some to be unchangeable doctrine.


    In actuality, Pius V’s Apostolic Constitution Quo Primum concerned disciplinary matters, not teachings on faith or morals. Evidence of this is that teaching on faith or morals would not—indeed, could not—allow for such exceptions as “unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given” or “unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind” or “We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom.” Such matters of Church discipline always remain subject to future change by equal or greater authority. In light of this, wording such as “in perpetuity” must be understood as “from now on, until this or another equal or greater authority determines otherwise.” Pope Paul VI certainly held equal authority to that of Pope St. Pius V. Therefore, changes to the Mass under his authority were licit and valid and were an example of disciplinary changes, not doctrinal changes.
     
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  9. Ananchal

    Ananchal Vigilans

    I go to both NO and TLM. This ruling still makes me look at Pope Francis very suspiciously.

    I’m not saying he doesn’t have the right to change what I’m wondering is if he’s really right to change


    I am consoling myself with the thought that God will take care of me.
     
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  10. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Thank you, Praetorian . It’s becoming clearer.
     
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  11. Mario

    Mario Powers

    In publishing this Motu Proprio, Pope Francis, who has done little to address the burgeoning schism in Germany, carelessly sows the seeds of a liturgical schism by a single stroke. What saddens me is that he, in a certain sense, fails to see the complementarity found in lax crendenti/ lex orandi. There is a union between how we worship and what we believe, and consequently how we live. In Paragraph 783 of the Catechism , this reality is clearly referenced:

    783
    Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.

    There is no better expression of this than the Sacred Liturgy. And I would have to say that the fruit of belief found in those who attend the TLM is more evident than in those who attend the Novus Ordo. Check the stats of those who are more pro-life for instance, and the Trads clearly end up on top.

    We have to live what the Church teaches, else we are a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And the grace to do that flows primarily from the sacraments, especially from the Holy Mass.

    Dear Pope Francis, please reconsider.:notworthy:
     
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  12. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Yes, Don, Taylor Marshall explains that the new measures limiting the TLM are much more draconian than even I thought. The Vatican's endgame is much worse than I initially thought.

    Here I am, rarely going to a TLM, and I'm torn up inside.
     
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  13. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

    Something I've been thinking about... Is the TLM causing the faith to grow and creating solid, pro-life Catholics? Or is the TLM attracting the solid, pro-life Catholics away from the Novus Ordo? Is it the same group of people, just shifted from one Mass to another? I mean, that's true in my case. I've been attending the NO my whole life, up until a few months ago. I was just as fervent and solid of a Catholic then as I am now, but I guess because I was that type of Catholic, I was attracted to the beauty, truth, and solid teaching of the TLM and its priests.

    What if, for the sake of argument, God wanted this to happen because over time the solid faithful Catholics will be forced back into the NO and will be so zealous for changes that we will finally bring about the reform of the reform... Convince our priests to turn back toward Christ, bring back sacred music, add some Latin back in, bring back processions and May crownings, etc. Would enough of us actually do that instead of running off to the SSPX?
     
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  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    He's as low as a snake's belly.
     
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  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    You know all this Modernist nonsense is based on the incredible delusion that mankind is progressing and moving towards some collective Utopia. They are Progressives. But how quickly this illusion will unravel before their very eyes when everything falls apart around us as the Tribulation sweeps on inwards.

    They remind me of children building sand castles and then watching in horror as the waves sweep in to wash them away.

    Satan deceived head cases. Building Godless sand castles in the sky comprised of false secular Freemasonic hopes and dreams.

    A Second Tower of Babel.

    I wonder at what stage they will finally realise they have all turned to dust?

     
  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

    As to, 'Respect', for the Holy Father I tend to be Old School on this and consider respect as something earned, rather than handed out as a free gift.

    I admit though I am a little in awe of his incredible cunning.
     
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  17. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Having listened to the Taylor Marshall video where he covers the reasons Pope Francis has made this new statement. I was shocked to hear people had said derogatory things about the New Mass, and this was why the Pope has now put his foot down on the TLM.

    We should never make derogatory statements about the New Mass. There are Priests dedicated to God who are serving with their lives the Holy Church, and it must be a huge Cross for them to bear when their Priesthood is belittled, while most of them offer Holy Mass with great reverence.

    Yes we hear some Priest have taken poetic licence with how they celebrate the Holy Mass, and indeed perform more of an entertainment service than a commemoration of the life, death and resurrection of the Son of the Living God for our Redemption. We would need to walk away from such performances.

    I am so very sad to hear what has now happened. Only God knows what is coming down the line. But we know God walks every step of the way with us.

    We must Keep Watch and Pray.
     
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  18. padraig

    padraig New Member

     
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  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

  20. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes me too. We must take into account how so called "progressives" hate the traditional Latin Mass. Hate it. Fr Heilman's uncle, a priest and mentor, stopped speaking to him when Fr Heilman began to embrace the TLM. Malachi Martin in his interviews with Bernard Janzen speaks of this hatred. Why such venom? It is hard not to draw certain conclusions.
     
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