Vatican Overturns Dutch Apparitions

Discussion in 'Spirit Daily and Spirit Digest' started by Catherine L, Sep 19, 2020.

  1. Catherine L

    Catherine L Principalities

    Looks like Spirit Daily now have a couple of articles posted about the apparitions of "Our Lady of All Peoples" -- Ida Peerdeman. Just thought I'd post it here to let everyone know. Also, if anyone can help to post links of those articles here in this thread, too? ETA?
    I don't know much about this apparition ...But interesting on what their Bishop says... even decades later.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  2. Booklady

    Booklady Powers

    Wow, what a day. Thank you Catherine L.

    https://spiritdailyblog.com/apparitions/vatican-overturns-dutch-apparitions
    Above is the link to the story

    This is the locution that Dr. Mark Miravalle promotes in his website:


    https://www.motherofallpeoples.com/...e-lady-of-all-nations-a-message-for-you-today
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  4. Booklady

    Booklady Powers

    This was a big one, I can't wait to hear what Dr. Miravalle has to say about this reversal.

    "The Last Marian Dogma


    The last and most climactic element in the plan of the Lady of All Nations is the repeated request for the dogmatic proclamation by the Holy Father of her roles as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. If the Church solemnly proclaims her mission as Spiritual Mother of all Peoples, under the titles Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, then She will be able to unfold her motherly mediating power in its fullest possible capacity. She makes a promise: “The Lady of All Nations wishes for unity in the true Holy Spirit. The world is covered by a false spirit, by Satan. Once the dogma, the final dogma in Marian history, has been proclaimed, the Lady of All Nations will grant peace, true peace, to the world. The nations, however, must pray my prayer, together with the Church. They shall know that the Lady of All Nations has come as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. So be it.” (2)

    https://www.amsterdamapparitions.com/about
     
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  5. Frodo

    Frodo Archangels

    I’ve read up on the apparitions and always felt they were false. I’m glad the CDF has spoken out. So many false apparitions in these days. Part of the diabolical confusion of these times.
     
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  6. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I'm not sorry to read this. I don't like the image which seems to contradict the Blessed Mother's humility.
     
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  7. andree

    andree Archangels

    This Aleteia article is translated from French I believe where many of us who have read this already are still waiting to see the official statement, which is not linked in the article and no one seems to be able to find it.

    Regardless of any ruling, let us not forget that the statue that shed 101 tears in Akita, is the sculpture of Our Lady of All Nations. Akita is 100% approved by Cardinal Ratzinger. That is a big sign from Heaven which is not mentioned in the Aleteia article.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Dr Miravalle is an excellent Catholic and will walk away from this as all good Catholics should.

    On the way out the door however, myself I cannot resist saying that these messages were from heaven and the day will dawn when this is shown to be the case. Satan has temporarily eclipsed these. But it will not always be so.

    There now I've said my piece.

    Sound of door shutting.:) I mean if Pope Francis's Vatican says something is false who am I..? I am glad they found the time to look into this in between the Cocaine fueled homosexual parties we hear so much about. It must have been difficult to slot this into their very full and very gay calendars. Anyway bye bye Amsterdam for the time being.. but only for the time being.;)

    From the very same folks who condemned St Padre Pio...

    I am obedient but I'm not stupid, none of this comes from heaven.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...are?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=standard

    Pope Francis tells parents who affirm their children as LGBT: ‘God loves your children as they are’
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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  9. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    • interesting...seems whole issue is about a prayer.


    • On 31 May 2002, Bishop Jozef Marianus Punt declared the apparitions themselves to be of supernatural origin.[1] (Since that time, there has been debate as to whether Bishop Punt had authority to overturn his predecessor's decision, given that his predecessor's decision was confirmed by the CDF.[note 2])
    • In a letter dated August 8, 2005, the secretary of the CDF acknowledged that "the said apparitions have received approval from His Excellency the Most Rev. Joseph Maria Punt,"[24][25] but expressed the CDF's request that the prayer associated with the apparition be edited, replacing the words "who once was Mary" with "the Blessed Virgin Mary".[14][15][16]
     
  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I can smell the stink of the Vatican at quite a few miles distant. No wonder Catholic Prophecy indicates the City of Rome will be burnt shortly to the sticks and the then Pontiff will have to flee it.

    Still these,errr people.. Sit in the Chair of Moses, for the time being..until they are sent to their apportioned place and must be obeyed.

    Sigh.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Booklady

    Booklady Powers

    I agree, I was surprised that at this late date the Vatican chose to make this announcement. It does not seem real. As AN said in another thread this needs further investigation. I hope Dr. Miravalle clarifies this, soon.
     
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  12. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    I came in to the forum to post this news about The Lady of all Nations. Yes Padraig, it is worrying because as far as I know, the statue of Our Lady of Akita was fashioned from a picture of Our Lady of all Nations.

    Will they come out and say Akita is false as well.

    Of course we have to accept the CDF and respect their findings for the sake of obedience. God will come to the rescue if this apparition is genuine. Mark Marivalle must be in total shock, he has promoted this devotion for some years. My heart goes out to him to be honest regardless of his objection to Father Rodrigue. God help and preserve us all.
     
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  13. Booklady

    Booklady Powers

    Spot on Julia. I had not made the connection with Akita, and I sincerely hope not. According to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, Akita is a continuation of Fatima.
     
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  14. Uh oh! Looks like the go to "Catholic Answers"/EWTN will have to offer another addendum to this history!!

    And they haven't made the Akita confirmation connection? Will this PR, AKITA, now also be on the chopping block due to its own foundation there? Anyway, not enough info as yet on just how and who was involved in this still confusing information. Re: legalisms....like there haven't been other later bishops elsewhere who made changes to earlier statements by former bishops of their dioceses? What is the full reasoning here? The Church is so often remiss in the urgency of treatment of the mystical and the "sheep" suffer for it. What a lack of clarity and transparency still hangs over Fatima portions. And yet events themselves point to just what that hidden clarity must be. I suppose that Dr. Miravalle will trace down any written reasoning and perhaps speak to it? Or just let it fly and let Divine Providence expose the Truth. Did someone with influence bring this anew to the CDF for definitive action?

    On May 31, 2002, Bishop Jozef Marianus Punt, the next bishop, declared that the apparitions were of supernatural origin. Since then, the question remains as to whether Bishop Punt had the power to overrule his predecessor’s decision, given that the latter’s decision had been confirmed by the CDF. In an unpublished letter from July 2005, the CDF requested that the prayer associated with the apparition be changed, replacing the words “who once was Mary” with “the Blessed Virgin Mary”. The supporters of the alleged apparitions deduced that the CDF had tacitly accepted Bishop Punt’s approval.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    Did the CDF ever officially/formally take this over from the local authority, normally considered where the Church stands?

    27 June 1974 - CDF affirms its earlier decision, after a deeper investigation, inviting the faithful to discontinue all forms propaganda with regard to these alleged apparitions and revelations.

    31 May 1996 - The then Bishop of Haarlem, Henry Bomers, published a Notification clarifying the distinction between the title, image and prayer, on one hand, and the messages on the other. The title, image and prayer had been approved for private veneration since the 1950s (according to this decree), and he was now granting the privilege of public veneration, as well. The belief in the messages had been prohibited, but now was permitted according to one’s own conscience, the Church being unable to rule definitively “at the moment”. As the decree notes, he consulted with “official authorities”, without specifying who those authorities were.

    3 December 1997 - The Bishop writes Letter (HB-97-403) commending the “Action of The Lady of All Nations” and the work of Fr. Paul Maria Sigl.

    3 May 2002 - In a Letter of 3 May 2002, Raphael Soffner of the public affairs office of the diocese of Haarlem affirmed to EWTN that the public veneration of Our Lady of All Nations by title, image and prayer, is permitted to Catholics by decision of the Bishop of Haarlem, “with the consent of the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome”. Catholics may make “a personal judgment according to their conscience” regarding the messages and apparition.

    31 May 2002 - Bishop Punt declares the apparitions to be of supernatural origin.

    July 2005 - The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith requests “that the words who once was Mary be left out of the prayer of the Lady of All Nations out of consideration for those who do not understand this phrase.” The ending of the prayer is now to say: “May the Lady of All Nations, the Blessed Virgin Mary, be our Advocate.” (Letter of December 2006).

    The Expression “Who Once Was Mary”

    In the original approved prayer, the Blessed Virgin was referred to as Our Lady of All Nations “who once was Mary”. It is explained by the promoters of the devotion in the following manner:

    This refers to the fact that Mary is no longer just Mary but rather The Lady, The Woman at the foot of the Cross. These words refer to her Eternal Motherhood over all of us, for she is Mother Whom Jesus gave to us from the Cross with the words: Woman behold thy Son!

    Nonetheless, as noted above the apostolate changed the prayer in 2005 to comply with a request of the CDF, as noted in a 2006 letter.
    ewtn.com/expert/answers/our_lady_of_all_nations.htm


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    RE: the messages about the task of planting the cross in the midst of the world, this one now appears to be rather prescient, and expressed in other places similarly:

    The task is very difficult for all Christians and the Lady said on 7 October 1945:

    There He walks, alone in this world. It will get even worse until the moment when something dreadful will happen and
    all at once the Cross of Christ will stand in the center of the world. Now they must look, whether they like it or not. (Warning? Nowadays many prelates do not believe in this coming event or are simply unacquainted with it! Don't care much either about the warning of "fire falling from the sky")

    In 27 May 1950, the Lady of All Nations repeated, "You will see that the Cross will be set up again only after much misery and disaster.”

    Way back in the 1950s, the phrase “who once was Mary” was deleted and this was the reaction of Our Lady:

    Tell the theologians that I am not pleased about their alteration of the prayer. "May the Lady of All Nations, who once was Mary, be our Advocate" – that must remain as it is…"The Lady" came with the Sacrifice of the Cross: The Son said to His Mother, "Woman, behold thy son." So you see, it was at the Sacrifice of the Cross that the change came about.

    ..........

    Our Lady of All Nations has told Ida it will be rough-sailing for this dogma.“A struggle will ensue. You will be attacked by others… Do battle and ask for the dogma: it is the crowning glory of your Lady.”

    ..........

    In 1952, she said: “Today I have come to tell you that the great movement for the Lady of All Nations must begin now.” Various movements have risen for a “signature campaign” requesting the Holy Father to declare the fifth Marian dogma. In December 1999, it was reported that the signatures gathered have reached over six million. Many bishops are at the forefront, including Bishop Josef Punt of Amsterdam. In the Philippines, there are thousands of advocates.

    But as Our Lady predicted, there is still much dissension. It cannot just be predicted when or how soon the dogma will be proclaimed.
    ......................

    So now there is the final kibosh.......No?
     
  15. Frodo

    Frodo Archangels

    False apparitions don’t usually flat out go against doctrine. Just because this apparition is ruled false doesn’t mean that the 5th Marian dogma shouldn’t/won’t be proclaimed. I also don’t see why Akita has to be ruled false.

    The messages were ruled not of super natural origin from the beginning. This is not the work of Pope Francis.

    It also stated - in the 50’s - that the Church had a lot of changes it needed to make. The messages call for the church to be more modern, social and up to date with the times.

    It called for changes in priestly formation To be more modern and suited to the times.

    Yikes
     
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  16. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    Can we even believe our Bishops anymore? Listen to Jim Caviezel’s videos I just posted. He is spot on!
     
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  17. this apparition had been recognized by the local bishop, so I don't see how it can affect this Dr. mark. now knowing that the church has condemned her, he just has to follow the church.

    about the desire for this dogma, it is much older than this apparition, even Pope Benedict thought of instituting this dogma, but after consulting the cardinals, he changed his mind.
     
  18. Booklady

    Booklady Powers

    Today, on Spirit Daily Blog

    Blog War Erupts Over Dutch Apparition

    [...]
    I am writing after seeing the latest article on Spirit Daily relaying the Aleteia report of the overriding by the CDF of the diocesan approval by Mgr Jozef Punt of the Amsterdam apparitions to Ida Peerdeman.
    +
    Olivier Bonnassies, founder of Aleteia, relayed this to me earlier this week, and we immediately set out to investigate where this had come from. What we found was:
    +
    i) The source, “I-Media”, had found an article on the blog of the well-known Italian journalist David Murgia (who has written extensively on private revelation) dated August 28.

    He had obtained a scan of a letter to Cardinal Rai from the CDF via the Apostolic Nunciature in Lebanon. Cardinal Rai had inquired into the status of the Amsterdam apparitions in connection with his own support for the French visionary “Virginie”, whose apostolate, the Alliance of United Hearts, is openly supported by the Bishop of Bayonne Mgr Marc Aillet. The Alliance of United Hearts has been campaigning for the Fifth Marian Dogma, hence Cardinal Rai’s inquiry to the CDF.

    ii) In the scan of the CDF letter, it nowhere appears that the apparitions to Ida Peerdeman have been declared “false”. It seems that David Murgia over-reacted and has caused a serious misunderstanding by including the word “false” in quotation marks at the top of his blog article. This was then simply repeated in French on Aleteia (where, additionally, a portion of the CDF letter was mis-translated).

    iii) The scan of the CDF document simply says that the Vatican position is unchanged since May 25, 1974: non constat de supernaturalitate. We all know that this is not a formal condemnation. But the document then goes on to tell Cardinal Rai that disseminating devotion to Our Lady of All Nations “non sia conveniente”; i.e. is not appropriate.

    iv) In other words, it is clear that this does represent a refusal by the CDF to acknowledge the 2002 decision of Mgr Punt. This is certainly a major blow to supporters of the campaign for the Fifth Marian Dogma (including myself). However, the CDF’s letter to Cardinal Rai does not constitute a constat de non supernaturalitate and there is no reference to a new inquiry or new data since 2005. This effectively means that the case of Ida Peerdeman cannot logically be regarded as closed.

    I would be very grateful if you could correct the [Aleteia] article so as not to propagate further the journalistic error of David Murgia and I-Media.
    Blessings to you and your ministry!

    Peter Bannister, Cluny, France

    -----

    Also on this blog, a response by Dr. Miravalle,

    "I have been in contact with the Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam and Bishop Punt directly, who have confirmed that there are serious errors in your recently published article concerning the Lady of All Nations from the French Aleteia, and they respectfully request an immediate correction regarding the following points:
    1. There is no official letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith on this issue. The Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam has not received any letter. There is only a private letter from the Nuncio in Lebanon after some contact with the Congregation. In this private letter, the Nuncio never states that “the apparitions are false,” but only refers to the 1974 non constat de supernaturalitate decision, and leaves out all further developments since 1974, the documentation of which is contained in the recent letter of Bishop Punt of 15 September 2020. You can confirm this yourself as the letter has been published in Lebanon.+
    1. Bishop Punt did in no way overrule his predecessor, Bishop Bomers. They worked together for years, and had the same identical positive position regarding the authenticity of the Amsterdam apparitions. In fact, Bishop Bomers presided over the funeral of the visionary and spoke very positively about the visionary.
    It is requested that you please correct these most serious errors as soon as possible.

    Thank you,

    Mark Miravalle "

    ------

    Well....o_O:confused:
     
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  19. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Our Lady knelt at the foot of the cross. That's the only image I have ever seen of her eclipsing the crucifixion.
     
  20. andree

    andree Archangels

    Well perhaps this one is a first then.

    Our Lady knelt at the foot of her Son crucified on the Cross. At the apparition in question, she is requesting the 5th dogma as co-redemptrix which would give Her the right to stand before the Cross (and it's a Cross not a Crucifix, so she isn't eclipsing Him). And her gesture is inviting us to the Cross, hence to Her Son via Herself (as the Ark) to the Cross.

    And I believe that as the Mother of Our Saviour, for Her gift to Humanity and with a lifetime of suffering beyond what any of us have ever suffered collectively, She has earned the right to stand there from God Himself.

    As we all know, She shared every instant of Her Son's passion and was crucified with Him, He in His Body, she in Her Spirit.

    And I would add that all the Bishops except one at that moment of Crucifixion ran away and left Her alone to witness Her Son die. She had the support of only one bishop and a few women disciples.

    I'd say something similar is happening today.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
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