Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Josh Kassanchuk, Dec 5, 2017.
Very astute analysis Dolours. Lots of food for thought here.
If any other president had done this--especially a democrat I daresay there would be far less consternation. It is just another bat to beat Trump with because no matter what he does there will be screech level outrage. It really gets old. And Israel seems to be taking a lot of heat as well. Other countries can do all sorts of heinous things and the world barely blinks. With Israel when they defend themselves oh the hue and cry! Villains! Assassins! Murderers. That too gets old. It is like kabuki theater.
Fatima, I have no idea, but from reading/studying, it seems that this section of Revelation cannot happen until after the Warning/Miracle. I have assumed that it would be after the world falls under one world government of sorts, and do not know if I read that or just have been assuming it (incorrectly perhaps).
I agree. The Antichrist and his 1290 day reign over the world with the False Prophet does not take place till after the Warning and Miracle.
Our Lord doesn't need this temple built but we know who arrives before the Second Coming (I added the strikethrough in the title of the article),
Will Trump Hasten the Arrival of the Messiah? Jews and Evangelicals Think So
By Cristina Maza On 12/11/17 at 4:14 PM http://www.newsweek.com/jews-trump-persian-king-babylonian-exile-third-temple-judaism-744698
In the wake of President Donald Trump’s controversial decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, some Jewish activists argued that the U.S. president was being guided by God to restore Jewish control over sacred sites.
Activists lobbying for the construction of a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem said Trump was playing a similar role to the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great, who allowed the Jews to return to Israel from exile.
Jews also praised Cyrus for helping them build a second Jewish temple in the same place where the first had been destroyed.
Judaism's First Temple stood from around 957 B.C. to around 586 B.C., and its Second Temple stood from around 515 B.C. to 70 A.D., according to the Hebrew Bible. Now, some Jews said Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital paved the way for the construction of a Third Jewish Temple in the same place the Second Temple had been before it was demolished.
“There have been amazing advances towards bringing the Temple this year. It was clear that Trump was part of that process, guided by Hashem [God],” said Asaf Fried, official spokesman for the United Temple Movement, an association lobbying for the Third Temple’s construction on the Temple Mount.
U.S. President Donald Trump (right) receives a gift from the Western Wall Heritage Foundation. Reuters
The Temple Mount is the elevated area above Jerusalem’s Western Wall that was once the site of Judaism’s two temples. The site is the third holiest place in Islam and has been the source of conflict between the two religions. It is currently under Israeli sovereignty but is administered by a Muslim religious trust. Jews are permitted to visit the site but are not allowed to pray there.
Jerusalem is currently controlled by Israel, but half of the city was seen as the future capital of a Palestinian state if a two-state solution were reached between Israeli and Palestinian authorities. Trump’s controversial decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel was widely criticized by U.S. allies, who viewed the recognition as the death of a negotiated peace settlement.
The Temple Mount is believed to be the site where Abraham demonstrated his devotion to God by taking his son Isaac to be sacrificed. According to Islamic tradition, it also was the place from which the prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven in the 7th century.
The Hebrew Bible describes both temples that stood on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Solomon’s temple, also called the First Temple, stood in ancient Jerusalem until its destruction around 587 B.C. by the army of the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar.
An Israeli woman and a Palestinian woman during a protest by Palestinian women against Jewish visitors to the compound known to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary and to Jews as the Temple Mount. Reuters
The Second Temple, meanwhile, was rebuilt with the support of Cyrus but destroyed after the Jews revolted against the Roman Empire. The Western Wall is all that is left of the Second Temple.
Advocates for a Third Temple were supportive of Trump even before he recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital on Wednesday. Evangelical Christians, who are staunch supporters of Trump, believed that a Third Temple would be built before the “end times” that would usher the second coming of Jesus Christ. Jewish tradition also holds that the Third Temple will be built during the time of the messiah.
“A number of Christian leaders have been comparing Trump to the Biblical King Cyrus. They point out that King Cyrus was a leader called and appointed by God,” wrote Enoch Lavendar for Prophecy Newswatch.
“If President Trump really has a similar calling to King Cyrus, could it be that God would use this real estate developer turned president to facilitate the greatest property development of modern time—the rebuilding of the Temple?”
All this talk about rebuilding the Jewish temple makes me nervous. I read an article recently by Catholic Apologist Tom Nash suggesting that any attempts to rebuild the Temple will be ill-fated because God doesn't want it. He went on to describes the problems encountered during the Emperor Julian's efforts which were abandoned. Here's a link to the article: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/12/03/divinely-planned-obsolescence/
Then I read an article by Jimmy Akin who doesn't agree with Tom Nash because he reckons that Julian's attempts were thwarted by God because the time wasn't right. Here's a link to Jimmy Akin's article: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/will-the-jerusalem-temple-ever-be-rebuilt
Either way, rebuilding the Temple isn't a good idea from a Christian perspective.
Actually, I think it's an excellent idea.
No, I don't think HaShem wishes to see the sacrifice of goats, lambs, or doves, and I KNOW that the thread will never again turn scarlet. (After the Passover sacrifice, the priests would tie a white thread to the handle of the doors to the Temple. If it turned scarlet, that was a sign that HaShem had accepted the sacrifice. For the 30-plus years after Jesus died until the Temple was destroyed, the thread never once turned scarlet.) But I don't think that means that G_D does NOT want the Temple rebuilt.
Remember, the Temple (and before that, the Tent where the Ark of the Covenant was stored) was the centerpiece of Jewish life and culture. After the First Temple was destroyed, the question plaguing the captives was how to BE Jewish without the Temple? The custom at the time with a captive people was to kill all the men who had or could take wives and so produce a new generation. The boys who had not yet reached puberty and the old men were left alone. Without adult men, within a generation, the captives would have forgotten their languages and their customs, and after 40 years they could be returned to their homeland and not be a problem again. However, with the Israelites, it was the old men -- the Rabbis -- who carried the culture. Thus, during captivity they were able to pass the teachings, the language, and the culture down to the next generations. It's here that we see the beginnings of modern Jewish religious practice, such as the bar mitzvah, that also showed Judaism being passed on to the new generation. Judaism was able to survive without the Temple; yet the loss of the Temple still produced a hole in Jewish faith.
In book after book of the Old Testament prophets, we read about the Jewish people being brought back to their land again, never to be separated from it again. In Rabbinical thought over the millennia, this Restoration -- as it was after the Babylonian Captivity -- would be marked by rebuilding a Temple. So it is in rebuilding a Temple -- the Third Temple -- that we would see in Jewish eyes the completion of the Promises of HaShem. We have been watching the groups of separated Jews returning to Israel, making aliaya. Now we will see the Third Temple rise above Jerusalem, and the Jews will see that HaShem is a faithful G_D and keeps His promises. It will mark the end of the cultural or secular Jews and the Jews will once again become a people faithful to HaShem.
Having rebuilt the Temple, though, does not mean the ritual sacrifices will recommence. Having shown His might and wisdom in getting His Temple rebuilt, He will show once again His faithfulness by sending a New Pentecost upon the Jewish people. I believe this will be through the Miracle and the Sign at Garabandal, when the shekhinah glory will be made manifest among the trees there. The Jewish scholars will recognize it (said recognition made possible only by the power of the Holy Spirit) and the Jewish people will come to recognize that their Savior has arrived and does now live with them in the presence of the Holy Eucharist.
It MAY be possible, then, that the Temple would be re-purposed as a Cathedral, complete with Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration. Maybe even with a Hebrew-language Rite for the Sacrifice of the Mass.
Bo, Yeshu Adonenu! Maranatha!
That's all very well, Muzhik, but I'm not in any hurry to suffer the persecutions of the reign of the AC. Much as I would like to see the conversion of all Israel, a part of me hopes that it won't happen until I'm pushing up daisies. May God forgive my selfishness.
I’m with you Dolours. I am in no hurry on the one hand. In the other hand I long for a return to Godliness In The nations of the world. Can one happen without the other? I absolutely yearn for the world I grew up in. It wasn’t perfect by any means but it was truthful and sincere and respectful of the Sacred. Nuns were real nuns and priests were serious and devout and the culture supported Christian principles. Sigh. I guess I was lucky to have known it. Younger generations have no idea what such a world is like.
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry, “Abba, Father!"
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
I consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.
I'm reminded of something I read by some saint or another years ago, something to the effect of, "Any fool can rush towards the martyrdom of death! We are called to rush towards the martyrdom of living! Not only feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, instructing the ignorant, and all the other corporal acts of mercy, but to act with love not only towards those who hate us but towards those we hate: to unite our sufferings to Christ's on the the road to Calvary as well as on the cross, to the extent that those whom we detest might have no clue as to our true feelings towards them, and that by G_D's mercy our true feelings might grow into true feelings of love as G_D loves them."
I have great sympathy for Pope Francis at this time. Think of all the Palestinian Christians who are currently subject to martyrdom; how they would be affected if His Holiness would express the slightest bit of approval for Pres. Trump's actions. Pope Pius XII suffered similarly during WW2. The religious leaders of the Netherlands, at the beginning of the Nazi occupation, had planned to issue a condemnation of the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. The condemnation was to be read from every pulpit in the Netherlands on the same Sunday. All the Protestant ministers chickened out, leaving only the Catholic priests and bishops to read the condemnation. The next day, the Nazis began rounding up priests, nuns, and lay religious workers and sent them to the death camps with the Jews. The message was recv'd, and the Protestants never again protested against the Nazis.
The message was also recv'd by Pope Pius XII. He had on his desk a similar declaration denouncing the Nazi's treatment of the Jews that he was preparing to promulgate. Hearing what had happened in Holland, he hesitated, then put the declaration into a desk where it stayed until after his death. Instead, he began giving secret instructions to every monastery and convent in Occupied Europe to provide shelter for the Jews. He began doing this himself, and getting trusted members of the Curia to do likewise.
When I first heard about this I wished he had had the moral courage to go ahead and promulgate the declaration regardless of the consequences. Now, I'm a little more thoughtful. Maybe it would have shortened the war, but maybe not. Think of all the souls that would have been lost, both in the military who would have followed their Fuehrer rather than their Pope; of all the laity who would have lost faith while waiting in the death camps. The number of Christians in the West Bank has dropped dramatically in the past 10 years; it would take not much effort at all for the Muslims to rise up and slaughter all of them as traitors to the Palestinian cause. Again, the martyrdom of living over the martyrdom of death...
I yearn for that world too. The most serious offence where I grew was to be caught with no light on your bike, nobody locked their doors, and murder was almost unheard of in this country. Now, most people have burglar alarms and sometimes it seems like not a week goes by without someone being murdered. It would be nice if we could return to Godliness by means of a worldwide Fatima type miracle of the sun but a chastisement doesn't sound very pleasant.
Feeling guilty here. Of course we should want the conversion of the world however it comes about.
Pope Pius X11 was between a rock and a hard place. Good luck to Pope Francis if he's expecting a kumbaya Palestine. He did have the option of adopting a neutral "we will pray for peace" stance. Christianity doesn't fare well in Islamic countries whether or not they are on a war footing.
Can you see the Jews ever relinquishing control of the Holy City? I can't. That great war from prophecy could be closer than we think. The missiles or bombs or whatever weapons of war are used nowadays won't distinguish between Christians and Muslims when they're raining down on Palestine. God help them.
The attitude for the Muslims against the Israelis can be summed up in a comment by a resident of Gaza who was fighting the Israelis about 8 years ago or so during the first incursion by Israel attempting to destroy the sites that were launching rockets against Israel. After a 24-hour period where over 100 rockets were launched against Israel, Israel struck back and struck back hard. The Gaza resident was quoted by one news source as saying, "What happened!? It's like the Israelis have gone crazy!"
The Muslims view the Israelis and Christians as kafir -- slaves. It is the role of the slave to care for the master, which is why during the Israeli actions in Gaza, the Gazans had no problem taking their wounded to Jewish hospitals. To Western eyes they appeared to show no shame for their actions or gratitude toward the Jews for saving their children. In their eyes, that is the proper role of kafir. The Gazan was surprised because kafir were NEVER supposed to react or defend themselves when beaten by their masters.
Given this view, they can see it perfectly right that the Jews should finally see their proper roles as servants or slaves of the Muslims, and so to eventually relinquish control of Jerusalem. Judaism existed for thousands of years before Muhammad met a demon masquerading as an Angel of Light and was purportedly given the Koran. This runs contrary to the Islamic teaching of Islam as the last, best teaching of Allah and so any evidence to the contrary must be destroyed. The Jews know better, so, no, I don't see the Jews ever surrendering control of the Holy City. Trump's actions was just another example of a slave rejecting his proper role and leading other slaves (the US) to rebellion. We will be punished.
I don't think we will be punished. I do think the third temple will never be built. There is turmoil now, but soon peace will come after the Miracle. For how long? Hopefully for a very long time. Those in charge of Israel today are not Orthodox. Most are wolve's in sheeps clothing- (Masons). There will be a fight against the Orthodox, but in the end, Christianity will win. The AC will lose.
EWTN do some good programmes about Christians in the Middle East. Sometimes they're part of the Where God Weeps series to promote Aid to the Church in Need. Sometimes they're just ordinary documentaries. Two of them which I have seen in the last year or so made me sit up and take notice. The first was about a school - I think it was a secondary school - run by the Church, possibly the Franciscans in Jerusalem. A fairly big school considering Christians are such a tiny minority there, most of the students seemed to be Muslims. Fair enough, I suppose, if the Church wants to promote harmonious relations by educating Muslim children. What caught my attention was that the Catholic school had a full-time Muslim cleric or equivalent to see to the religious needs of the Muslim children.
Then there is the Catholic University in Jerusalem, which I think is also run by the Franciscans. Most of the students there also seemed to be Palestinian Muslims. Understandable, perhaps, that there aren't enough Christian youngsters to keep a university going, but I'm wondering why the Church is subsidising the secondary and university education of Muslims. The people on the programme were saying that it's all about good relations with the neighbours. At the same time, they were complaining that the students have a lot of trouble getting from the walled off Muslim area to the university campus. I got the distinct impression from that programme that the Catholics in Jerusalem are aligning themselves with the Muslims. Palestinian Christians are aggrieved because they have been dispossessed of their lands or have been subjected to the kind of tactics by the Israelis which makes their living there unbearable. A more recent programme was about Jordan, and there was no mistaking that the Catholics (and possibly other Christians) have very much aligned themselves with the Muslim Palestinian cause.
I think that the Christians in Palestine are in a no-win situation but I don't think it wise for them to be picking sides between the Muslims and the Jews.
Incidentally, given that Bethlehem is on the Palestinian side of the divide, I expect the trouble there to ease off by Christmas. People there have too much to lose financially to spoil the Christmas tourist trade.
It is a difficult situation for the Franciscans. We are close to the priest who is in charge of the order in Israel, and he is loved by all sides. And that is his role. His main concern is for the poor. So, educating the poor, whether they are Muslims is his job. The planting of the seed in their hearts is the aim. If Franciscans can convert Muslims, and they are by the way, then it would be easier to convert the Jews. Or so they hope.
Educating the poor is good but what I saw doesn't encourage me to donate, not that my donation would make much difference. There are Christians in the Middle East in greater need than Muslim university students in Israel, and Christian children in Africa who don't have their breakfast. Is the Church funding the teaching of Islam? Does the Palestinian Authority help with the funding or is the Church paying for all of it?
Well, the funds help Christians get to Israel. The order is trying to bring more Christians to the Holy Land.
As well as, to keep the Christians from leaving Israel. The Franciscan Foundation is directed by Father Peter Vasco. Look him up. He is amazing!
Separate names with a comma.