"Two Popes": Has the Papacy become a Diarchy?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by mothersuperior7, Jun 2, 2014.

  1. Andy3

    Andy3 Powers

    Indeed Kathy and in Jesus's words and not Texan, take the beam out of your own eye before you point out that splinter of your neighbors.

    or was it...He without sin cast the first stone?

    or maybe...Love thy neighbor?

    oh I remember now, it went a little something like this:

    [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    [11] The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican. [12] I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. [13] And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner. [14] I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather than the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.

    Too many in the world are Pharisee when we should all be publicans.
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  2. Jackie

    Jackie Archangels

    Rorate Caeli use to have commentary and discussion on their blog but no more. It got too negative and overly
    Julia likes this.
  3. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Kathy said...'I avoid him because it is not helpful to me to focus on what's wrong. I already know everything is going to hell in a hand basket! Attending to all the abuse and sin, in and out of the Church, makes me angry and bitter. I'm focusing on forgiveness these days'

    Thats fine Kathy, for you and many other members of the forum well acquainted with the problems, but Michael has a message for many Catholics who are not so aware of the Crisis in the Church, in the Priesthood.
    To me his programme is a reminder to not give up fighting , something to many of our parents did in the 70s . The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

    Keep up the good fight Michael, And long may Rorate print the truth however difficult some may find it.

    A question for members , Can you think of any layman who upheld Church teaching and truth while most failed , including most Bishops of the area ?

    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
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  4. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

  5. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    Rorate-caeli mixes too much conjecture and sensationalism with the truth they offer up to be a worthwhile source, in my opinion. They have an agenda, and will serve that agenda. Here is what they said almost immediately after the election of Pope Francis:

    P.S. We are Catholic. From the moment of the Pope's election, when we did not even know his name, we renewed our profession to the Pontiff, in our prayers (sidebar: Tu es Petrus) and in our hearts. But we are not pushovers, and we will not pretend things are good, with the rose-colored glasses of neglect. In fact, just soon after his resignation - that launched the chain of events that led to this day - Benedict XVI reminded us:

    The false optimism was the post-Council optimism, when convents closed, seminaries closed and they said “but... nothing, everything is fine!”.... No! Everything is not fine. There are also serious, dangerous omissions and we have to recognize with healthy realism that in this way things are not all right, it is not all right when errors are made.

    We reject all false optimism, and this is the spirit we will keep here, and it does not matter if many do not like it. In the web, it is quite easy to avoid things one does not like.

    Posted by New Catholic at
    3/13/2013 09:47:00

    So, they staked their ground regarding the Holy Father from the very beginning, and they've been flailing away at him ever since.

    They invite those of us who don't agree to avoid their blog. I will happily avoid them, and encourage others to do so.
  6. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I am no lover of the Rorate caeli blog but this thread was about an item they posted which consisted of translations of items from two Italian journalists. Rorate were not supportive of the journalists.

    Unfortunately, because the two items appeared on the Rorate blog, I think people have been assuming that the journalists were criticising the papacy of Pope Francis in some way or other. I think that there would have been a better understanding of what the journalists were saying if the English text had appeared in normal news sites.
  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think there are two paths we can tread.

    One is spiritual, were we endeavour the change the world by looking inwards and changing ourselves, by striving to become Saints.This concerns opening our hearts to God grace flooding in and setting us free from sin.

    Another is religio-political in which we look outwards convinced of others faults and seeking to change them through awareness of their faults and endeavouring for their reform.

    The fault of the second is that there really are no human remedies for spiritual maladies not even our own. We do not change others by pointing out their faults to themselves and others. No our sure path is inwards to our own hearts and our own faults, hence by changing ourselves and becoming a Light to others we will most surely change the world around us.

    Every time Mary is sent from heaven she sets this path before us. That we ,each of us should live the Gospel with our lives. We none of us will be sent to hell for the faults of others. If we are sent to hell or the cleansing fires of purgatory it will be for our own most grevious faults. Let us amend them and leave it to the Lord to cleanse the faults of others.

    Padre Pio was such an example of us. He took the path within and shook the world.

    Matthew 7:5
    Do Not Judge
    4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

  8. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    The third road you have missed out Padraig. For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
  9. padraig

    padraig New Member

    If we have a chance, a real chance, to actively change things for the better then of course we should change them.

    But if we are criticising as a kind of spectator sport , then no we should not do so. Prayer in my opinion is the greatest power in the Universe.

    I have to say in most of these matters concerning say the Vatican or even the actions of Bishops and the clergy generally prayer is our only and best recourse. I also suspect in a lot of reports coming in about the Vatican on the net few if any of us have really the least clue as to what is going on , only rumours and rumours off rumours.
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  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Like Kathy I have listened to Michael Voris with increasing disquiet. If complaining could change things , yes we should complain for all we are worth. But complaining for the sake of complaining ? No.

    It's negative. Prayer is positive. If protest is effective and aimed, as pro life activity has been, then fine. But a lot of this intra Church stuff .Well its strikes me often as complaining for the sake of complaining. It is not effective, it is negative and does far more harm than good.
    In my own life I have found prayer over and over and over again to be the great answer. Mary when she comes form heaven has asked for prayer and fasting and conversion.

    Not for politico/religious action. For prayer.

    You know sometimes in Evangelical Protestantism we find this negativity. They spend so much time criticising the Church they loose the positive of the Gospel message. Protestant of course comes from the word, 'Protest'. What a pity.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
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  11. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    You yourself recently took on some priests over what happened in you parish. And I say good on you. That was a great example of Faith and works.
  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Yes .

    Although this was a case of in the hope that something gets done in Rome.
  13. Jackie

    Jackie Archangels

  14. Jackie

    Jackie Archangels

    Drat, I shall put the quote up correctly...:rolleyes:

    I mentioned the commentary at Rorate Caeli being no more because I enjoyed it, felt it a loss when it ended. You learned a lot! I guess, I didn't express myself very well. MO, I don't know for sure, they stopped comments because of all negative written at the time about the new Holy Father, Pope Francis or I should add Holy Fathers. There was a lot of criticism of Pope John Paul II too. To me that's the "righteous."

    Long ago, there was private revelation on how much God the Father loves the Tridentine Mass. I haven't
    ever read this explicitly in prophecy but I imagine there will be one Mass in the Era of Peace not two. The now Extraordinary Form is more reverent and gives God much (more) honor.
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  15. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    True Jackie, I only came across Rorate a few months before the comments were disabled ,so I only got to comment their one time myself. The moderators made the right call . There were to many Sede Vacantists infiltrating the site and comments got very ugly.
    jerry and Jackie like this.
  16. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Jackie said..'.Long ago, there was private revelation on how much God the Father loves the Tridentine Mass. I haven't
    ever read this explicitly in prophecy '

    I also have never read this. I have read approved prophecy against changing the Mass. And aware of one set of locutions unapproved[barely known] which I am reading at the moment.
  17. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    My concern is that their site feeds this kind of ugliness. When your love for the Tridentine Mass leads you to sin against charity, especially toward Peter, then it has become a false idol.

    If the enemy can't stop a parade, he will lead it!
  18. Jackie

    Jackie Archangels

    kathy k and Mac,

    I don't get righteous in the traditional sense as some Catholics do over is the Pope following Christ or over the two forms of Mass. On the Mass, you would have to be blind not to see the reverence and honor given God in the Tridentine Mass. My problem, I am triumphant with Protestants in discussing our differences.

    My excuse, it seems no matter what you say to share the Faith, our brothers and sisters in Christ rarely hear it. Frustrating, I should let them be, Our Lord knows how He is going to bring them to the Faith.

    I said to Mac already, you do not read it in prophecy specifically. Though repeated in the messages ~ The glory of My Church will be seen again by all the world. That sounds like the Traditional Latin Mass not the New Mass.
  19. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    Maybe we look to deep into things. Most truly spiritual people are able to reach (through the Grace of God) the mystical. The sad part is, we as a whole are intrigued by extraordinary part of mysticism (levitation, bi-location, stigmata), Step one of mysticism is the undeniable knowledge that God exists. That in turn ...opens one to understand that evil exists. Step two in mysticism is how a saint strives to get close to God and at the same time avoid sin. As one grows in mysticism (closeness to God, Mary, Angels and communion of saints) it leads us in two directions. One - to be in the world living your life for the conversion of souls. Two - leads to abandoning the world and living a life of prayer and self-sacrifice for the conversion of souls. Lets not worry about what the Holy Spirit has decided. As of today, Chair of Peter is occupied by one person Pope Francis. God has given us a great saint to be in the world to convert the masses. But the Holy Spirit has also given us Pope Emeritus Benedict to enter into the mystical world of self-sacrifice and prayer for the conversion of souls. How lucky we are that God has blessed us with two Holy men at the vatican. Lets not waste our time trying to decide what is wrong or worst yet denying the Chair Peter. Every true saint has always accepted obedience to the Church. As of today, Pope Francis is in charge of the flock.

    May Gods Will be Done
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
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  20. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    More on "two popes":

    Archbishop Gänswein: Benedict XVI Sees Resignation as Expanding Petrine Ministry
    Posted by Edward Pentin on Monday May 23rd, 2016 at 9:43 AM

    Prefect of Pontifical Household also recalls "dramatic struggle" of 2005 Conclave.

    In a speech reflecting on Pope Benedict XVI’s pontificate, Archbishop Georg Gänswein has confirmed the existence of a group who fought against Benedict’s election in 2005, but stressed that "Vatileaks" or other issues had "little or nothing" to do with his resignation in 2013.

    Speaking at the presentation of a new book on Benedict’s pontificate at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome May 20, Archbishop Gänswein also said that Pope Francis and Benedict are not two popes “in competition” with one another, but represent one “expanded” Petrine Office with “an active member” and a “contemplative.”

    Archbishop Gänswein, who doubles as the personal secretary of the Pope Emeritus and prefect of the Pontifical Household, said Benedict did not abandon the papacy like Pope Celestine V in the 13th century but rather sought to continue his Petrine Office in a more appropriate way given his frailty.

    “Therefore, from 11 February 2013, the papal ministry is not the same as before,” he said. “It is and remains the foundation of the Catholic Church; and yet it is a foundation that Benedict XVI has profoundly and lastingly transformed by his exceptional pontificate.”

    Reflecting on Benedict's time as Pope, Archbishop Gänswein said that although he was “a classic ‘homo historicus’, a Western man par excellence who embodied the richness of the Catholic tradition like no other,” at the same time he was “so bold as to open the door to a new phase, for that historic turning point that five years ago no one could have imagined.”

    Gänswein drew attention to “brilliant and illuminating” and “well documented and thorough” passages of the book, written by Roberto Regoli and entitled Oltre la crisi della Chiesa. Il pontificato di Benedetto XVI — “Beyond the Crisis of the Church, The Pontificate of Benedict XVI.”

    The German prelate especially highlighted Regoli’s account of “a dramatic struggle” that took place in the 2005 Conclave between the “so-called ‘Salt of the Earth Party’” (named after the book interview with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger) comprising “Cardinals Lopez Trujillo, Ruini, Herranz, Ruoco Varela or Medina" and their adversaries: "the so-called St. Gallen group” that included “Cardinals Danneels, Martini, Silvestrini or Murphy O’Connor” — a group Cardinal Danneels referred jokingly to as “a kind of mafia-club,” Archbishop Gänswein recalled. (His reference to that struggle backs up an interview German journalist Paul Badde gave the Register last November and with EWTN Germany, during which Badde also mentioned German Cardinals Kasper and Lehmann as being part of the St. Gallen group).

    “The election was certainly the outcome of a battle,” Gänswein went on, adding that the “key” to the Conclave was Cardinal Ratzinger’s “dictatorship of relativism” homily that he gave on the first day of the election when he was Dean of the College of Cardinals.

    Benedict’s personal secretary then referred to how Regoli highlights the “fascinating and moving” years of Benedict’s pontificate, and his “skill and confidence” in exercising the Petrine ministry. He recalled, in particular, the “black year” of 2010, when Manuela Camagni, one of the four Memores Domini consecrated women who assisted Benedict, was tragically killed in a road accident in Rome.

    The year, which he attests was a dark one, was further blackened by “malicious attacks against the Pope” and the fallout from Benedict’s lifting of the excommunication on Bishop Richard Williamson who denied the extent of the Holocaust.

    But nothing affected Benedict’s “heart as much as the death of Manuela”, whom he considered part of the “papal family” of helpers. “Benedict wasn’t an ‘actor pope’, and even less an insensitive ‘automaton Pope’,” Gänswein said. ”Even on the throne of Peter, he was and remained a man… ‘a man with his contradictions’.”

    Then, after having been so affected by the death of Camagni, Benedict suffered the “betrayal of Paolo Gabriele”, his “poor and misguided” former valet who was found guilty of leaking confidential papal documents in what became known as the ‘Vatileaks’ scandal. That episode was “false money” traded on the world stage as “authentic gold bullion” he said, but stressed that “no traitor, ‘mole’, or any journalist” would have caused Benedict to resign. “The scandal was too small” for the “greater, well considered step Benedict made of millennial historical significance.”

    Such assumptions that they did have something to do with it, he said, “have little or nothing to do with reality”, adding that Benedict resigned because it was “fitting” and “reasonable”, and quoted John Duns Scotus’ words to justify the decree for the Immaculate Conception: “Decuit, potuit, fecit” — “He could do it, it was fitting that He do it.”

    Various reports have suggested that pressure was exerted on Benedict to step down. One of the latest came last year from a former confidant and confessor to the late Cardinal Carlo Martini who said Martini had told Benedict: "Try and reform the Curia, and if not, you leave.”

    But in his speech, Gänswein insisted "it was fitting" for Benedict to resign because he "was aware that the necessary strength for such a very heavy office was lessening. He could do it [resign], because he had long thought through, from a theological point of view, the possibility of a pope emeritus in the future. So he did it.”

    Drawing on the Latin words “munus petrinum” — “Petrine ministry” — Gänswein pointed out the word “munus” has many meanings such as “service, duty, guide or gift”. He said that “before and after his resignation” Benedict has viewed his task as “participation in such a ‘Petrine ministry’.

    “He left the Papal Throne and yet, with the step he took on 11 February 2013, he has not abandoned this ministry,” Gänswein explained, something "quite impossible after his irrevocable acceptance of the office in April 2005.“

    Instead, he said, "he has built a personal office with a collegial and synodal dimension, almost a communal ministry, as if he had wanted to reiterate once again the invitation contained in the motto that the then-Joseph Ratzinger had as Archbishop of Munich and Freising and naturally maintained as Bishop of Rome: "cooperatores veritatis", which means ‘co-workers of the truth’.”

    Archbishop Gänswein point out that the motto is not in the singular but in the plural, and taken from the Third Letter of John, in which it is written in verse 8: "We must welcome these people to become co-workers for the truth".

    He therefore stressed that since Francis’ election, there are not “two popes, but de facto an expanded ministry — with an active member and a contemplative member.” He added that this is why Benedict XVI “has not given up his name”, unlike Pope Celestine V who reverted to his name Pietro da Marrone, “nor the white cassock.”

    “Therefore he has also not retired to a monastery in isolation but stays within the Vatican — as if he had taken only one step to the side to make room for his successor and a new stage in the history of the papacy.” With that step, he said, he has enriched the papacy with “his prayer and his compassion placed in the Vatican Gardens.”

    Archbishop Gänswein repeated that Benedict’s resignation was “quite different” to that of Pope Celestine V.

    “So it is not surprising,” he said, “that some have seen it as revolutionary, or otherwise as entirely consistent with the gospel, while still others see in this way a secularized papacy as never before, and thus more collegial and functional, or even simply more humane and less sacred. And still others are of the opinion that Benedict XVI, with this step, has almost — speaking in theological and historical-critical terms — demythologized the papacy.”
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