Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.
Wow!! So Prophetic.
Where did I say Pope Francis is furthering false teaching? I think you need to visit specsavers-or stay of the guiness
Whatever one's stance on Pope Francis, to unilaterally and unauthoritatively announce him as not being our Pope or to advocate schism is exactly what the devil would love us to do. From the best of intentions we would do satan's work for him.
No matter what our present Pope does, we defy all error by hanging in there. To leave would be to set error in stone.
Can i please ask out of complete naivety, how do we manage when the doctrine is changed and we are told this is how it is now according to the Pope. Do we disregard him but pray for him and somehow support him. It is so confusing and I pray that it will come clearer to us all as there are so many suggestions on what we should be doing and some pretty complicated. As for me in my simple views it's pray for his errors keep to the old church when the new one takes hold and support the Pope. Or have I got it all wrong.
I'm here to learn.
Martina, I would suggest you follow the advice of Padre Pio which you incude in your profile - "pray, hope and don't worry".
Pope Francis has not changed any doctrine. Many of the active posters on this forum think otherwise but it is the Church and the Pope that you should listen to and follow. If you keep reading the Pope's critics you will end up being led astray.
When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. Galatians 2,11
Today when cardinals oppose pope Francis to his face, because he stands condemned, ignorant people have a pseudo-problem. Did Paul make a schism?
No, because Peter (Cephas) obeyed him. If current pope Francis will obey and condemn the sin, all will be OK. If not, pope will do a schism, nobody else, and he will go into the hell with his followers. What is more: the Christ or a man? Gospel or pope's antigospel?
You do not know why angels are damned, because you do not read mystics.
Once the heavenly church had one vicar archangel Lucifer, and the knowledge of angels was not perfect like now. And 1/3 angels obey and follow Lucifer when he acted as if he were God.
Now the last Church have vicar and humans obey and follow him, when he changed the Gospel. 2/3 of humans will be damned. Many "great ones" here, great only in material sphere and liked only by materialistic members, explain the death of 2/3 of mankind as global catastrophe. The "greater" here, the greater dwarf in mystic. 2/3 of dead ones is number of spiritually dead. And they shall die forever.
Oh dear, another forum member joins the Francis critcs! It is your choice LV. All the information is available to show that the Pope is being totally faithful to Christ and His Church in his leadership. A lot of people think otherwise. We are all free to choose. Don't make the wrong choice!
Only critic. I love and respect him as pope. St Paul was critic of st. Peter, st. Bernard of Anacletus II.
David thank you for that. That's what I do the majority of the time anyway pray, hope and try not to worry.
Possibly I'm blessed in my ignorance to a lot of this. I tend to follow my gut or as it is my conscience with a lot of things relating to God so I trust it is him speaking to me.
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him.” Judges 19:22
Israelites asked, “Shall we go up again to fight against the Benjamites, our fellow Israelites, or not?”
The Lord responded, “Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands.” Judges 20:28
The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire. Judges 20:48
And now, the representative of God on earth claims: "If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?
Translated: any practicing gay doesn't search for the Lord, therefore he certainly hasn't good will. But Francis as pope cannot judge him as sinner. He is in contrary with God. I could say similar quote: If someone is man (male) and he tries to give birth and be good mother, who am I to judge?
St. Paul as God's representative judged minor sins!!! 1 Corinthians 5
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
Pope Francis is anti-Paul.
Christ said: It has also been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ But Itell you that anyone who divorces his wife, exceptfor sexual immorality, brings adultery upon her. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Pope Francis supported the Holy Communion for divorced re-married adulterers.
Pope Francis is anti-Christ according to this logic of little child, because he preachs Anti-Gospel. I know adulterers receiving the Holy Communion and priest supporting them. If I attack them they quote pope Francis and I can go with the Gospel away.
Pope Francis supports allowing all who are not excommunicated or in mortal sin, to receive Holy Communion. Do you think he is wrong? This matter is not about adultery or any other sin. It is about whether anyone who is not in mortal sin can receive communion.
I know someone who is in their second marraige (her first marraige was violent in everyway towards the end she was unfaithful) she has not received the sacraments since her Divorce. Not because she was refused but because she knows this is what God says. She has come back to God after years of straying and anger as her life had completely fallen apart within the first marraige and now wants to get an Annulment so she can be right in her marraige now and have the holy ceremony of marraige within the Church. But are annulment nowadays legitimate ?
She should definitely try to get an annulment.
NO! She is adulterer. I am going to find some quotes from MV about this.
Chapter: Christ's Condemnation of Adultery
"To speak to you, who are unmarried, on this topic, may cause you amazement. But you are only a 'spokesman' and must thus subject yourself to conveying anything whatsoever. What I will now say is of use to others. It is useful to correct one error and several more which are increasingly rooted in the world.
"The world is divided into two major categories. The first, which is enormous, involves those without any scruples at all--either human or spiritual. The second involves the scrupulous, but is, however, subdivided into two other kinds: those rightly scrupulous and the meanly scrupulous.
"Marriage is not censured by God, to the extent that I have made it a Sacrament. And here I am not speaking either about marriage as a Sacrament, but about marriage as union, as God the Creator made it by creating male and female so that they would join, forming one single, flesh, which, once it is united, no human force can separate or should separate.
"On seeing your hardness of heart, ever greater hardness, I changed the precept of Moses, replacing it with the Sacrament. The aim of My act was to give an aid to your souls as spouses against your carnality as animals and a check upon your illicit facility in repudiating what you formerly chose so as to pass on to new illicit spouses, to the detriment of your souls and the souls of your children.
"Whoever is scandalized by a law created by God to perpetuate the miracle of creation is greatly mistaken--and these are generally not the most chaste, but the most hypocritical, for the chaste in marriage see only the sanctity of the goal, whereas the others think of the materiality of the act-like those who with blameworthy irresponsibility think that with impunity they can get over My prohibition of moving on to new loves when the first one has not been dissolved by death.
"Adulterous and accursed are those living beings who break a union which was formerly willed out of a caprice of the flesh or moral intolerance. For if he or she says a spouse has now become a motive for feeling a burden and a repugnance, I say that God has given man reflection and intellect so that he will use them, and use them all the more in cases of such grave import as is the formation of a new family; I again say that if one has at first erred out of thoughtlessness or calculation, one must then bear the consequences so as not to create greater catastrophes which fall upon the better spouse and the innocent children, led to suffer more than life entails and to judge those whom I have rendered unjudgeable by a precept: the father and the mother. Finally, I say that the power of the Sacrament, if you were real Christians and not the spurious ones you are, ought to act in you, spouses, to make you a single soul that loves itself in a single flesh and not two beasts hating each other, bound to a single chain.
"Adulterous and accursed are those living beings who with obscene deceitfulness have two or more conjugal lives and return to the other mate and their children with the fever of sin in their
blood and the smell of vice on their lying lips.
"Nothing makes it licit for you to be adulterous. Nothing. Neither the abandonment or illness of a spouse, and much less his or her more or less hateful character. Most of the time it is your being lustful which makes you see your companion as hateful. You want to see him or her that way to justify to yourselves your shameful actions which conscience reproaches you for.
"I said--and I won't change My words--that not only those consummating adultery are adulterers, but those wishing to consummate it in their hearts because with sensual hunger they look at the woman or man who is not theirs.
"I said--and I won't change My words--those who by their way of acting place a spouse in a position to become, in turn, adulterous are adulterers. Adulterous twice over, they shall answer for their lost souls and for the soul they have led to be lost by their indifference, neglect, boorishness, and infidelity.
"God's curse looms over all of them, and don't think this is just a way of speaking.
"The world is splitting into ruins because families, first of all, have been ruined. The river of blood submerging you had its dikes crumbled by your individual vices, which have spurred more or less great leaders--from the heads of state to the heads of villages--to be thieves and overbearing so as to have money and distinction for their lusts.
"Look at the story of the world: it is full of examples. Lust is always in the triple combination which provokes the appearance of your ruins. Whole nations have been destroyed, nations torn away from the Church, fissures lasting centuries created for the scandal and torment of races because of the carnal hunger of rulers.
"And it is logical that it should be that way. Lust extinguishes the Light of the spirit and kills Grace. Without Grace and without Light you do not differ from the beasts and thus perform beastly actions.
"Go ahead and do this, if that's what you like. But remember, O depraved ones who profane homes and children's hearts with your sinning, that I see and remember and await you. In the look of your God, who loved children and created the family for them, you will see a light which you would not like to see and which will strike you down."
It is the same as if he had said that black people could do something if they are white. He is guilty that my known priests and few friends are going to hell, because they no longer obey Jesus but him, man
more about adultery
―No. Do not complain and do not grieve as if my love for you has changed. This is not a decrease—it is an increase. I am speaking to you and to all the spirits who have devoted themselves entirely to Me and find themselves in the same situation as you. My eyes rest upon them and are consoled after all the disgraceful actions I see being performed on earth.
―When someone has completed a hard task which is tormenting and even repugnant, doesn‘t he experience great joy on breathing pure air and looking at a beautiful meadow, green and flourishing? His lungs expand, his eyes rest, and his mind finds recreation. He seems to be reborn.
―The same thing happens to your Jesus. So afflicted, so disgusted! And by so many! Consider: I am Goodness and Love, and I receive offenses, continual hatred, and I must use severity to punish the guilty. This wearies Me more than carrying the cross. It is not that I then did not know I was dying in vain for many. I was not ignorant of the fact, but I am speaking of the material fatigue and the moment. This is continuous fatigue for my spirit. The blameworthy weary God‘s spirit. Consider this, and you will understand how serious sin is, if it is able to weary a perfect spirit, like the divine one. Well then, you, my beloved ones, bring Me rest.
―And hear this parable for you.
―A man loves a woman. He has seen she is beautiful. He has been told she is good, pure, and modest, and he has felt an affection arising in his heart, and with the affection, the hope of being able to possess that woman as a wife and make her the pearl of his house. ―He has himself introduced to her relatives and asks them for the young woman. They grant her to him. And he, with a thousand attentions, tries to conquer her affection, for his love is already giant and wants to bring his beloved to the same point. Every time he goes to her, he takes her something he knows she likes; when he is distant, he thinks of what he might take her; if he is far away from the town, he writes to her to tell her what he cannot say in person; and as soon as he comes back, he runs to her. He does not mention his worries to her, but leaves them outside the door because he does not want to grieve her, and for him it is already a relief to see the smiling face of his beloved.
―There passes in this way the time you call ‗engagement‘ and we Jews call the ‗the nuptial ceremony,‘ which, however, in not being a consummated marriage, was at heart a very rigorous official engagement, to the point that the woman was called a ‗widow‘ if her fiancé died before the consummation of the marriage, leaving her a virgin.
―But then the time comes when the woman leaves her parents‘ home and enters her husband‘s house, to be ‗one single flesh with him,‘ and according to the ancient command, and forever, according to my new command, which says, ‗What God has joined may not be separated by man for any reason.‘ For to separate means to push someone towards adultery, and the sin of adultery is committed not only by those sinning by this action, but by those bringing about the causes of the sin by placing a creature in the conditions fostering sin.
―And this should be said not only to the husbands who abandon their wives and to the wives who separate from their husbands, but also to the relatives of the former and the latter who by their particular ill will or selfishness sow discord between two spouses, or to those deceitful friends of the family who with lies, or simply by fomenting a bad mood which would dissolve if not fomented, create phantoms between two spouses capable of making their life together unbearable.
―In truth I tell you that, if spouses were able to live isolated in the circle of their affection and their love for their children, 90% of separations in marriage would cease to exist, for the same grounds of incompatibility which are adduced to obtain the separation of spouses are present in every form of shared life-between children and parents, among relatives, among brothers and sisters, and even among friends who have gathered together—and you do not make them so imposing as to arrive at a split. And you break this bond, which is indissoluble in all respects, with the maximum facility.
―You should never be unfaithful—never. But this could be—not from my standpoint, but from yours—the only motive for a separation. From a natural standpoint. For the supernatural one says, ‗If one of the two is already at fault, it is twice as much the duty of the other to be faithful so as not to deprive the children of affection and respect. The parents‘ affection for their children and the children‘s affection for their parents. And the man or woman who, unable to forgive, sends away the guilty party and remains alone, then finds it hard to remain alone and passes on, in turn, to illicit loves whose consequences are felt in the immediate present of the children and their future morality.‘ I thus say, ‗It is not licit for man, for any reason, it is not licit for the Christian to separate what a Sacrament has joined in the Name of Christ.‘
―But I do not want to speak to you about this. I want to speak to you, soul of mine, who are joined not to a man, but to God, with the offering of charity which He has accepted. I want to speak to your sister souls in total love for Me.
―When the bride leaves her parents‘ home, then, and becomes the wife of the man she loves, she rises to a greater degree of love. They are no longer two who love one another. They are on loving himself in his double. One loves himself reflected in the other, for love fastens them into such a tight knot that joy annuls personality, and the two individuals relish a single joy.
―These correspond to the first two periods in mystical betrothal. First you are loved and become fond of God, who loves you. You then penetrate into a higher love and rejoice in his joys, which become yours. But this is not the perfection of the bride. I have already told you this and now repeat it to you in response to your question. ‗Why, now, do You no longer speak those words of such secure peace, of such an affirmative promise that You would spare me certain pains?‘ you asked a short time ago while rereading the pages in October.
―O Maria! Why! Because I have taken you higher.
―Men accuse Me of repeating Myself in my statements. But if I must repeat Myself with you, that are entirely intent on listening to Me and seem to Me like a little bird in its nest with its mouth wide open, waiting for the food which its father offers it—your food, which is My word— how can I fail to repeat Myself when speaking for those who are not attentive to Me? I must reiterate the same truths once, twice, a hundred or a thousand times to get a morsel of them into their hearts and arouse light there. And if that light later goes out, I am not to blame, and theycannot accuse Me of their blindness.
―Now I tell you this. When the exiting period of love has passed, love matures into a dignified strength in both the man the woman, shortly before nothing more than two inhabitants of the earth and later becoming one single flesh, and it makes them a father and a mother who love one another over a cradle and look at each other, saying, saying as God the Creator said on observing man, ‗We have made a creature who is eternal, who belongs to the Heavens, to God.‘ This is man‘s destiny, and if his ill will does not pervert it, this is his glorious goal. But when they arrive at this perfect union, doesn‘t the wife also become a mother, sister, and friend to her husband?
―Oh, what a sweet comfort for man is the woman able to love him with such perfection that he can convey all his thoughts to her and be sure they are understood and will find consolation!
―Oh, blessed is the house where the sanctity of the Sacrament lives in the true sense of the word and produces an inexhaustible flowering of acts of love. Not only love in the flesh, but more in the spirit. A love which lasts and, indeed, grows, as the years and concerns grow. A love which is true love. For it is not limited to loving for enjoyment, but embraces a spouse‘s pain and bears it with oneself to lighten its weight.
―Do two who weep together love one another less than two who kiss each other and smile? No, Maria. They love one another more. A man shows he esteems his wife greatly if he entrusts everything about himself to her to receive her advice and comfort. A woman shows she love her husband greatly is she is able to understand him in his thoughts and willingly helps him to bear his concerns. There will no longer be fiery kisses and words of poetry. But there will be caresses from soul to soul and secret words which spirits murmur to each other, giving one another the peace of true love. Of true marriage.
Martina, your friend should speak to her parish priest about seeking an annulment - her first marriage may have been invalid. Then she can have her second marriage regularised, go to confession and be back at the altar rail! God bless her.
As regards your earlier question about what you should do if the Pope 'changes Church teaching' - he can't do that. Remember when John Paul II was asked to permit women priests, he said he had not the authority to do so. The Pope doesn't have unlimited powers - he's not a dictator. But whatever the current one says next, the way forward for us is clear. We stay in the church founded by Christ. Peter said 'To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life', and so we have nowhere to go outside the Church. It is God whom we serve, not the Pope, although the Petrine office demands our utmost loyalty, and whatever some churchmen may say to disappoint us, we cannot just up sticks and join the Baptists. I once considered doing this very thing myself, many years ago, after being distressed by heretical preaching. This is still the church of Padre Pio, Faustina, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. You will never be asked to deny the Church's true teachings, and if anyone ever tries to make you, stand firm.
LV, there is a great irony in you posting quotes from Maria Valtorta (whose writings I love and which I firmly believe are from God) in support of your beliefs which are of the 'black or white' or of a fundamentalist nature.
But we know that Jesus has told us that a man who has looked at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery in his heart. Does that mean the man should never marry? And do you think that the whole annulment process is from the devil? You make Cardinal Burke sound like an extreme liberal.
I'm not going to start explaining here why you have a mistaken approach but at the heart of it is a rigidity that gives you a 'certainty' about things that is not coming from the Holy Spirit, although you think it is.
Separate names with a comma.