Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.
One word. Garbage
Pope Francis: "On the other hand, truth appeals to conscience, which cannot be reduced to a form of conditioning. Conscience is capable of recognizing its own dignity and being open to the absolute; it thus gives rise to fundamental decisions guided by the pursuit of the good, for others and for one’s self; it is itself the locus of responsible freedom. It also needs to be kept in mind that apart from the pursuit of truth, each individual becomes the criterion for measuring himself and his own actions. The way is thus opened to a subjectivistic assertion of rights, so that the concept of human rights, which has an intrinsically universal import, is replaced by an individualistic conception of rights. This leads to an effective lack of concern for others and favours that globalization of indifference born of selfishness, the result of a conception of man incapable of embracing the truth and living an authentic social dimension." Speech at Council of Europe 25 Nov 2014
I think Pope Francis teaches the exact opposite of your claim Garabandal. Its precisely this sort of blatant untruth (whether deliberate or not) that gives people temptation to feed on. I wonder how many people here actually read what he writes; I mean the complete texts. You simply must do proper research and not throw around factually inacurrate things. Think of the damage you may do to other readers
This is the most specific prophecy to date that I have seen in reference to the happenings within the barque of Peter.
If one wants to know what Pope Francis is teaching you only have to watch what his closet Cardinal's, Bishops and Priests are doing in their respective areas (dioceses/churches) of authority. Are they teaching/following the past disciplines/doctrines of the faith or are they free-wheeling? The same could be said during the reign of any of the past popes. The past two popes tried very diligently to put into church positions those who would adhere to clear/defined/traditional teachings of the faith and this is well established. Has Pope Francis done the same?
The origin of the Black Mass appears to go back to Early Christian times in Rome. There was a slander amongst the pagans that the Christians actually engaged in cannibalistic rituals. This came from a misconception about the Eucharist were Christians said they ate the Body and Blood of Christ. Some pagans thought Christians were actually doing that. Actually eating peoples bodies and drinking their blood.
Some people put forward the theory that the first Black Masses were initiated by Pagans who had false ideas of what the mass actually was.
In either case reports of Black Masses have been reported in Rome for many centuries. We should expect this for where there is a great good you always find great evil .
It is no accident St Michael is Guardian of the Vatican.
Yes I have read a little about that before. But what I'm talking about Malachi Martin said, and I think it was during Pope John XXIII reign that some Cardinals had a satanic mass within the Vatican itself.
I'll try to find the link it is on.
When I was in Rome last Christmas I could feel them doing things like this at night. I could not wait to get out of Rome quick enough. Not just one group several and all very powerful.
No Sorry, If you want to know what Pope Francis is teaching READ IT AND READ IT FULLY! If bishops and priests are using him to further false teachings, that is another matter, and I dont for one minute think that doesnt happen, but please get the facts right.
Padraig, this is not the link I was originally talking about but i just came across this it is so interesting and towards the end he is expressing possibly what is happening now. In Malachi's words from 1993 or 94.
What that is supposed to mean is an 'informed' conscience which means properly taught to conform to Church teachings.. If that is not stressed (and it is usually not) then it is so wrong...
Padraig this is the link, if you do not have time to listen to it all just forward to minute 19 and he expresses it here.
Pride made angels fall from heaven
It is pride that blocks most of the ways into our heart – mostly because we hold opinions, often held without knowing the full facts and based on gossip and speculation. Opinions are often the chains that pride uses to bind hearts.
Pride plays into our ego and the temptation to be right – a false sense of righteousness. It’s a trap for one and all laid by the master of pride. It can make us like the proverbial blind man leading others into the pit. That’s pride.
A few years back I went on pilgrimage. I happened to be at confession a few days before I left (just in case I didn’t get there for any reason). So when someone suggested that the best way to start a pilgrimage is to go to confession, I hestitated. Done that I thought, what need do I have to go again so soon. But to confession I went.
I started telling the priest I had confessed just a couple of days before and felt I had nothing else on my conscience. And then he said to me: “Let’s start with pride!”
Yes, pride, that sin that blinds us to the truth God really wants us to see, not the truth and faults of others, but to what really lives in our own heart and to see if pride has its foot against the door.
Pride is always slow to admit fault or make an effort to reconcile. It’s a form of fear in case our weak and fractured heart is exposed.
Perhaps, you misunderstood what I said or perhaps I was not clear enough in what I said?
I certainly do not try to write garbage or the untruth that you claim that I spread. I have read AL many times and I am familiar with its teachings so I don't write out of ignorance nor do I take a lecture from an online key board warrior such as yourself. Your post is almost rude and if I can retort --- somewhat condescending. (my emphasis!). Please take time to read what I say as I have taken some time to write and reflect on the subject.
To remind you and others of what I wrote --- Pope (Francis) is emphasizing the primacy of conscience in much of his teaching (and) then he is encouraging people to follow their own individual path.
I am not the only one to say that!!!
Many, many commentators and theologians have noted in Francis' teachings the reaffirmation of the primacy of individual conscience -- here I quote Todd A. Salzman is a professor of theology at Creighton University:
"In Evangelii Gaudium and Amoris Laetitia, Francis brings to the fore again the Catholic doctrine on the authority and inviolability of personal conscience"
To make a comparison between the approach of Pope Francis and that of Pope John Paul II will highlight the nuanced differences in the role of conscience in their thinking:
---- in Familiaris Consortio Pope John Paul II taught that the only way to form one's conscience is to conform it to the teachings of the Church. We are to be wholly rooted in both the truth of sexuality and marriage as taught by the church & he taught of the obligation of the laity to obey that truth. Subjective conscience must always submit to, and obey, the objective "truth" of magisterial teaching. Almost nowhere in the document does the church's teaching on the inviolable primacy of individual conscience, even in sexual matters appear.
Pope Francis takes a different approach as he states in AL, 'The Church is called "to form consciences, not to replace them".
Pope Francis and the primacy of conscience --
With regards to family planning:
In AL the Pope makes it clear it is the couple not the Church that should decide on family planning based on primacy of conscience -- "The upright consciences of spouses who have been generous in transmitting life may lead them, for sufficiently serious reasons, to limit the number of their children. “In accord with the personal and fully human character of conjugal love, family planning fittingly takes place as the result a consensual dialogue between the spouses, respect for times and consideration of the dignity of the partner. The parents themselves and no one else should ultimately make this judgment in the sight of God".
With regards to divorced and remarried:
Pope Francis writes, “it can no longer simply be said that all those in any ‘irregular’ situations are living in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of sanctifying grace.”
"So a divorced and remarried couple is not necessarily deprived of sanctifying grace. And, on top of that, their consciences may lead them to conclude that their relationship, while perhaps not the ideal, is nevertheless “what God is asking [of them] amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits.” More is involved here than mere ignorance of the rule. A subject may know full well the rule, yet have great difficulty in understanding “its inherent values”,339 or be in a concrete situation which does not allow him or her to act differently and decide otherwise without further sin."
There is an "immense variety of concrete situations" and situations can be so vastly different that his document, the pope confesses, cannot "provide a new set of rules, canonical in nature and applicable to all cases" (Amoris Laetitia, 300). The only moral solution to any and every situation is a path of careful discernment accompanied by a priest and a final judgment of personal conscience that commands us to do this or not to do that (Amoris Laetitia, 300-305). Only such an informed conscience can make a moral judgment about the details of any and every particular situation".
With regard to atheists
Pope Francis commented, "The question for those who do not believe in God is to abide by their own conscience. There is sin, also for those who have no faith, in going against one's conscience. Listening to it and abiding by it means making up one's mind about what is good and evil."
The following is a direct quote of Pope Francis on listening to conscience:
"Conscience is the interior space in which we can listen to and hear the truth, the good, the voice of God. It is the inner place of our relationship with him, who speaks to our heart and helps us to discern, to understand the path we ought to take, and once the decision is made, to move forward, to remain faithful".
(I underlined in the above sentence - a direct quote from Pope Francis -- which is in accord with what I said in my initial post!).
Ok, so first you made it appear that the Pope is saying any conscience is above what the Church teaches -even one in error. As sparrow pointed out, and as I showed from the quote I gave he teaches no such thing. He is exactly in line with catholic theology on the role of conscience. As Blessed Cardinal Newman wrote, I drink first to my conscience then to the Pope.
To take your other issues, regarding atheists and people who have never heard the gospel, conscience is the God given gift for them to know the natural law. The Church has always taugh what Pope Francis said. Conscience in that sense is our direct line to God-and obeying his will. Regarding NFP, he says nothing different to Pius XII, Benedict XVI and St John Paul. Of course he Church doesnt decide when people stop wanting children. How on earth could the Church do that. It is not a bedroom police force! we have already been through the issue of divorced and remarried. And as far as Evangelii gaudium is concerned, the Pope emeritus said in his book Last Testament about it: " a beauiful one [text], and grippingly written...pg 33, then in answer to those that say its a break with tradition If one isolates things,takes them out of context, one can construct opposites, but not if one looks at the whole...no opposition" p 34
Ive highlighted that last bit because that is exactly what is going on on this forum.
Certainty of moral supremacy is a danger sign. That is why I love and trust Pope Francis...he is very much human...he is very much the fallen man...he is very much like I am...fallen and in need of Redemption. Hence... he has Mercy at his heart.
I will now play the prophet...there will come a time when we will stare death in the face...would we be so unmerciful to ourselves as to point out the injustices done to our "sanctity". "Remember we are dust and dust we shall return".
First of all Pope Francis set a tone as it regards family life when early on when he mentioned "parents breeding like rabbits" and later "I think 3 children is about right number". Why? Why would he not give the Churches clear teaching that all marital acts must be open to the possibility of life? Ever heard him say that? No, but instead he makes fun of families with more kids than the world would applaud. This is surely something no other pope has even come close to doing.
No one is looking for a perfect Pope. However, the Church and its founder, Jesus Christ, surely wants clarity as anything less comes not from God.
'If bishops and priests are using him to further false teachings'....
Wow! He might be doing something wrong? You have concerns too. Really? Perhaps you could expand on this?
A chink of light at last. False teachings are being furthered. Wow! This from a person who claims to be defending him.
Wow! If he is furthering false teaching how on earth can you defend him? With, 'defenders' like you who needs critics?
'..further false teachings'
What an inditement, the more telling in that it comes from someone who claims to be defending the guy.
But I suppose you will go on to say, 'Yes the guy furthers false teachings but can't help it he is being strung along and is mighty fine in other ways? '
Astonishing reasoning, quite astonishing. Talk about lack of logic and tying yourself up in knots. I can only say I am glad you are not trying to defend me.
A supposed Pope, '.... furthering false teaching', but that's alright then, cause he can't help it? .
What a hoot!! Did you ever think of going on stage?
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