The Third Secret of Fatima

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by padraig, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. LusoKnight

    LusoKnight Angels

    No, your excerpt doesn't state that the source of the Kiev reference was John Paul II. Only that John Paul II believed his destiny was tied with Kiev and Moscow. That's not mutually exclusive with what he said in regards to Kiev being mentioned by Our Lady in the third secret. He literally ties Kiev (Ukraine) and Russia with the mystery of Fatima. The mystery of Fatima is the third secret.

    And like he said in Windswept House, the Blessed Mother said that the conversion of Russia will originate in the Ukraine. And that "the Virgin pointed to the Ukraine as the epicenter for the conversion of Russia". And that "more than seventy years ago the Fatima mandate targeted an area that has since become one of the most important geopolitical hot spots in the world.". The Blessed Virgin Mary, not John Paul II.

    I have ignored that? I've posted quotes corroborating my points. Quotes that you are ignoring.

    If by official accounts you're referring to Sr. Lucia, yes. She only revealed Portugal and Russia. If by official accounts you're also referring to people who have actually read the secret, then no. As Malachi Martin has revealed, Kiev is mentioned.
     
  2. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Angels

    Yes, and I readily acknowledge that I have neither the "definitive proof" or the ability to "independently verify beyond a reasonable doubt," but in the process of trying to find fault with my reasoning, you trip over yourself, again and again...lol The difference between you and I on this issue, is my willingness to distinguish between "belief" and what you claim to be "fact/truth." That is the basis of the "argument" here, if we can call it that...lol For them to be compatible requires a much higher level of evidence--perhaps "complete" knowledge, ruling out any other valid explanations. However, your followup responses to my initial post which prompted this exchange, falls far short of meeting even a reasonable critera. And on top of that, you come to this forum insisting that certain beliefs constitute statements of fact, when they are not necessarily one and the same. You also ask, what makes me believe in Malachi Martin or anything to begin with? Well, it starts with acquiring a little knowledge, and then applying a dose of logic and reason, which appear to be in short supply among many who are highly opinionated.

    The part where you said, "I assume he's telling the truth because his career and history checks out with the ability to read the third secret" is valid, but again, in reference to Fr. Martin's claim, it falls far short of being considered a "statement of fact." Furthermore, I could bring up a few things that could challenge your view that "history itself has done nothing but validate him as time goes on."
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  3. Frankly

    Frankly Archangels

    Friends.. I lean to the opinion of one of you...

    However, Arguing over what MM said or not? IS v.bothersome to/for me (and perhaps for some others)..

    IMHO, As with any controversial 'religious' argumentations over whatever... When they exhibit being potentially unresolved? It only serves to present confusion and not confirmation / resolution to many readers!


    BRIEF:

    I was an acquaintance of MM: familiar with most of his works, did 'work' for him in Manhattan, spoke in person (telephone and face to face) to him on a variety of topics, and went to his funeral and burial.

    IMHO, .. I know Exactly WHY folks were/are drawn to him.
    AND WHY he's therefore treated by those who've become enamoured by his:
    education, official Churchly positions, exorcism activities, intellect, 'inside' knowledges, 'visionary', gift of writing, Books, et cetera...
    ... as being The Bottom Line Expert on certain topics within Catholic Forums!

    MM is not perfect..

    Ergo, after a time, and keeping this BRIEF, ... I ... U l t i m a t e l y.... shifted away from viewing MM as being a true and perfect 'mouthpiece of God' (so to speak?) ...

    On over to the full attention and devotion required of us.. by and to -> God/Jesus!

    And for surely? This IS the Way to be!

    _
     
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  4. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Angels

    Need I remind you that initially, you said that John Paul II had nothing to do with this. It's obvious that you are not reading my responses carefully. Check below.

    Janzen poses the following question, “Now you just mentioned Gorbachev and the book ‘Windswept House’ spoke a lot about Russia, does Russia still play an important role in the message of Fatima even though the Iron Curtain has come down?” Malachi Martin's response, “It does. It does, and I said to you that I think it’s true that there’s some unfinished chapter or paragraph in John Paul II’s life before he dies in connection with Russia. His destiny is tied with Kiev in Ukraine and with Moscow. Why, I don’t know, but I know this one, that’s what he’s told me, I believe there’s something connected there...."

    Now, in reference to what you said, "your excerpt doesn't state that the source of the Kiev reference was John Paul II." Well, wrong again...Malachi Martin specifically said this, "Why I don’t know, but I know this one, that’s what he’s told me, I believe there’s something connected there." So, what more does Fr. Martin have to say to claim that he got the information directly from having talked with John Paul II and NOT from having read the Fatima Third Secret?


    Oh yes, a novel written by Malachi Martin (which allows him to take literary license) perhaps years after having conversed with Pope John Paul II regarding Ukraine and Russia...Irrelevant to any Fatima Third Secret discussion unless we have full details. Try again...lol





    Oh, sure, you carefully missed that part where Malachi Martin claimed to have gotten the Kiev--Russia connection directly from John Paul II. Indeed, I haven't ignored anything, not by a long shot, but it is so obvious that you are carefully limiting references to the Fatima Third Secret....In fact, the references to John Paul II's belief that "his destiny is tied with Kiev in Ukraine and with Moscow," makes this particular quote even more compelling,
    "Why? Well, that would take me too far afield into papal secrets, why Russia and Kiev are involved in the final solution of this problem." What "papal secrets" did Malachi Martin hint at with regard to Russia and Kiev?




    The "official accounts" as revealed by Sr. Lucia and the purported Fatima Third Secret released by the Vatican in 2000. And again, using the particular Bernard Janzen interview segment (the response to the question
    “Now you just mentioned Gorbachev and the book ‘Windswept House’ spoke a lot about Russia, does Russia still play an important role in the message of Fatima even though the Iron Curtain has come down?”) Kiev/Ukraine are NOT mentioned in reference to the Fatima Third Secret, but in remarks made by John Paul II directly to Malachi Martin. When will you finally acknowledge that, eh?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  5. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Angels

    I would have to agree about Malachi Martin not necessarily being a "'true and perfect mouthpiece of God' (so to speak)," but I would also have to acknowledge that much of what he has said through his interviews and writings has enriched my faith....Ultimately, our impressions of people--what we think of them, are formed by incomplete information, even if we have numerous personal interactions with them throughout our lives. And even then, oftentimes, we may not even fully know ourselves.
     
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  6. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Angels

    Unfortunately, even that does not necessarily bring us closer to determining who the False Prophet purportedly will be.
     
  7. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Angels

    Indeed, when I posted my first comment that somehow triggered what I consider an "unnecessary" discussion/debate regarding Malachi Martin, I was only interested in discussing the aspects related to the details of the Fatima Third Secret as per his description of it and the details involved. Unfortunately, some have added their own spin, based on faulty interpretations and or false claims, ultimately leading to misunderstanding and confusion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  8. Frankly

    Frankly Archangels

    Yes.. the 3rd Secret.. For years, decades... Endlessly argued... And to what avail?
    I was around in 1960 when a relatively fewish faithful followers of Fatima (falsely) believed that the 3rd Secret concerned the End of the World (in 1960)!
    ALSO, I was with a friend who, outdoors, and he looking up to the sky - ducked and cringed come Midnight 31 Jan 1959... ... Alas.. No End..

    When the 3rd Secret was revealed? It was rather very anti-climatic to many/most? of those whom at some level still "followed" Fatima with the 3rd Secret imbedded in their minds.

    In my opinion it would not surprise me if MM did (disobediently?) sneak a peek at it. (And so what?)

    During Vat II - he was periti to (radical liberal) Cardinal Bea .. and he could move about within the Vatican at night
    And he was also connected with some of whom I label .. rad-trads..

    +
     
  9. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Kiev, Ukraine, Russia --

    Whether in the Third Secret or not it's a direct prophetic hit by MM in my opinion.

    And John Paul II read the secret so it is possible these places get a mention.

    And Russia is the focus of much of the prophetic pulse of Garabandal - the Pope will go to Moscow etc.

    The signs of the times are all around.
     
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  10. Frankly

    Frankly Archangels

    1. For those who're familiar with the Prophesies from God,
    2. AND who have been keeping in close touch with events around the world from sources beyond the Lying AntiChristian Media, (such as Yes an MM --- and Yes as with some others as well) ?

    IN a manner akin to knowing the future of a thrown baseball in mid-flight - via seeing its trajectory / trend?
    ... And likewise possessing those 2 experiences above ?
    Yes, It's quite easy to make reasonably accurate predictions of what lies ahead..!

    The Signs of the Times have been very clear for a lonnnnng time..

    The Enemies of God/Jesus are not only very real, -- they - as Prophesied - grow stronger and stronger.

    AND Only JESUS can & shall FIX what ails this world - which one day shall be no more.

    God's Prophecies - such as the Crucifixion of our Lord Jesus - and His Return - must occur!

    Some events - such as God's extreme displeasure with Sinful Mankind - lessened when He found favor with Noah and seven others.

    In a similar manner, I believe the level of intensity of the actions of the oncoming AntiChrist - can be mitigated (but never fully stopped) by Prayer


    SHORT TERM TIMELINE?

    As for US/NATO // RUS/UKR/CHINA/ETC? And Its Economic & Shortages Fallout?

    Before this year is up, around the Globe, the Volume shall rise in a noticeable manner..
    Next Year? Same-same.. Etc.. .

    Varying Attacks against the Church shall increase as is Prophesied..

    Bottom Line? ... Be ye Ready and Awake.. and direct Prayers to God/Jesus.

    +
     
  11. LusoKnight

    LusoKnight Angels

    No. It's taking the belief we all share (Fatima apparitions and secrets), and all that it encompasses, as fact. Because under your premise, that we can't verify wether he read the secret, or the popes, or that there is a secret to begin with. We can't verify virtually anything. Then what exactly is your point?

    Certain beliefs? Which beliefs exactly do I consider statements of fact? Do you consider the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary to be facts? If not, I ask again, what is your point? You might as well start the argument there, and not put into question someone who did have direct contact with the document that Lucia wrote and did read its contents.

    Acquiring a little knowledge? Fact or belief? Logic and reason is the basis of my argument. An argument that you apparently agree with but decided to turn into a pointless discussion over fact vs belief when you also believe that the premises are factual.

    That he read the secret is a statement of fact. That there is a secret is a statement of fact. His references to the secret, under basic logic and reason, are factual.

    Need I remind you that when I said that John Paul II had nothing to do with "this", this being the references to the third secret and Kiev. Which again, my quotes from Malachi Martin corroborate. Quotes that you have conveniently ignored over your own, which aren't even mutually exclusive.

    That's not what he's saying at all. Please, read the quotes you're posting carefully. In that excerpt, he's explicitly talking about John Paul II's belief that his life/destiny is connected with Kiev and Moscow (and considering that he also read the secret, it makes sense he would think that). That's something completely unrelated to the point I'm making, which is corroborated in the quotes I posted.

    I'm sorry, I thought you were having an honest argument. I quoted the novel precisely because he actually corroborated its information outside of it. It's part of the factual information that he put in the novel.

    He never claimed such thing. That's a false and illogical conclusion you're reaching from his statement.

    The Third Secret is one of many papal secrets. And yes, you have ignored many things and continue to.

    Purported third secret? Why do you say "purported" when it's an "official account" by your standards? Once again, you recognize the contradiction and keep trying to turn this into a false dilemma.

    I won't acknowledge your belief when the quotes from Malachi Martin I've posted don't corroborate that. Not even the quotes you posted corroborate your conclusion.

    In fact, the latest even to support Malachi Martin's revelations regarding the third secret and Kiev being part of its contents, was Francis sudden decision to do Russia's consecration (although not quite as Our Lady requested) when the Ukraine, of all places, was attacked by Russia.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  12. archangel michael

    archangel michael Moderator Staff Member

    Lets be charitable to each other on this forum.

    I am always one up for a spirited debate, but lets not argue with each other on this forum. Let us respect each other's viewpoints. We can disagree, and agree and sometimes agree to disagree.

    But always be nice to each other here.
    Please.

    If it continues this thread will be locked.
     
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  13. LusoKnight

    LusoKnight Angels

    Right, sorry for the heated debate. It's not my intention to be disrespectful, and for the sake of the thread and its readers, I won't feed this particular argument any more. I felt the need to reply back and defend myself since my arguments were being misconstrued. I think the quotes I posted are perfectly explicit in and on themselves.
     
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  14. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    In this 1989 video ( approximately 16:10) Father Malachi Martin makes it clear that the secret mentions Russia and a physical punishment unleashed by it.
    about the possible mention of Kiev is there any mention of the baptism of Vladimir the great (980) as something analogous to the future conversion of Russia?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  15. Frankly

    Frankly Archangels

    Curious.. In your opinion, Does the Secret which MM (must have opened in disobedience?) differ from that which St. John Paul II revealed to the world?
     
  16. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Powers

    I do not believe that he read the contents without authorization but that he was actually present as secretary to Cardinal Augustin Bea when Pope John XXIII opened the envelope and showed it to some cardinals in 1960; I believe the hidden content explains the meaning of that vision revealed in 2000 of a dead pope in a city in ruins.
     
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  17. LusoKnight

    LusoKnight Angels

    Fr. Martin read the secret with proper authorization, and had to swear an oath not to reveal its content. What the Vatican revealed in 2000 is not only inconsistent with previous comments from popes and cardinals that did read it, including Ratzinger who eventually became pope, but Sr. Lúcia herself revealed part of the true secret that's not part of what the Vatican released.
     
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  18. sam the same

    sam the same New Member

    Found interesting regarding Fatima and Our Lady's 7th visit to Fatima. This interview took place in 1950 by Fr. Rafferty with Lucy. It is a common belief in catholic circles that Mary appeared in 1921 but not sure of the source. IF that is the case, it is such the anti-climatic apparition if ever. This interview allows a different view... Fr. Rafferty took it to mean we should expect another visit.

    https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1...-15d3-4d24-ac5f-ac0372949a08.pdf?v=1652146427


    >>>Finally, I asked her about one other thing. that has always puzzled me. And up until that time I had not seen it commented on in the message of Fatima. In May of 1917, Our Lady told the children to come five more times. She appeared, of course, in May, June, July, August, September and October that was 6 times altogether. But in May, her first appearance, she had said, “I will come again a seventh time.” Father Luis objected and said, “I don’t think she said that!” And Lucy said, “Oh yes ! yes! Our Lady did say that!” I continued, “Now what did Our Lady mean? Has she already come the seventh time or is she yet to come? Because in my mind, there has always been the thought that maybe if Our Lady is going to convert Russia, she will come the way she came the last time at Fatima.— perhaps there will be a great manifestation there of the power of God and the influence of Our Lady. And I thought, well may THAT is the seventh coming.” Lucy was smiling but she said nothing. That was another question she wouldn’t answer but I think the fact that she wouldn’t answer it let me to believe that Our Lady has not come the seventh time. I asked Father Luis how it affected him. And it affected him the same way. He said he interpreted that to mean the same as I did. That Our Lady had not yet come the seventh time. The seventh coming- Will we suppose it to be an official coming? Something that will be connected in some way with the Worldwide message of Fatima. At least that is a good thing to think about. Maybe in our day we will have a manifestation of Our Lady’s power and motherly concern. A seventh coming in fulfillment of her promise and perhaps if we all continue our work promoting the FIVE conditions of the Fatima message, we, in our day, will see that other promise fulfilled – the conversion of Russia and Peace in our world.

    Another site to view: https://www.ourladyofgoodsuccess.co...s-of-that-message-has-been-given-to-the-world

    The conditions for our participation includes wearing of the scapular with the other conditions attached. Not often, if ever, is the scapular mentioned with these others.
     
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  19. Frankly

    Frankly Archangels

    ... Is it true that many/most posters here .. consider Jim Martin JESUIT to be completely DisTrustful?
     
  20. LusoKnight

    LusoKnight Angels

    What?! Jim Martin and Malachi Martin are two completely different individuals, in more ways than one.

    Fr. Malachi Martin was an exorcist, private secretary to Cardinal Bea and advisor to popes Pius XII, John XXIII and Paul VI. He read the Third Secret of Fatima. He was an archeologist and paleographer on the Dead Sea Scrolls, and a renowned writer. He was also a former Jesuit who actually wrote an entire book exposing them, titled "The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church".

    Jim Martin is, well, I'd rather keep my mouth shut.
     
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