Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Sep 15, 2018.
Yes here too.
Our diocese is saying it at the end of our Masses as well.
It’s wonderful that your parishes/ dioceses are doing that.
That must be due to faithful, non-modernist bishops‘/priests’ own initiatives.
It is not part of the Novus Ordo Mass.
I’ve never been to a NO Mass where the 3 Ave Marias, the Salve Regina, prayer to St Michael and 3 prayers to the Sacred Heart of Jesus were said after Mass.
A terrible loss.
I read this amazing prophecy years ago in Yves Dupont's "Catholic Prophecy" but dont remember who said it.
Are we close?
"FOR WHEN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IS NO LONGER OFFERED ON THE ALTARS, THE BLOOD OF MEN WILL FLOW DOWN THE STREETS AND MANKIND WILL FACE ITS DARKEST HOUR."
Question for the MofG forum members... When St. John Paul did the consecration of Russia to Immaculate Heart of Mary...it wasn't fulfilled because not all of the Bishops participated, correct? Was it was only partial of Bishops that did participated? Are all the Bishops (and Cardinals, too?) from all over the world are to participate along with the Pope in order to get this consecration of Russia to Immaculate Heart of Mary to be fully fulfilled, right? Or how does this work?
Like from Akita and LaSalette ... says cardinals against cardinals and bishops against bishops... seems tough one to get them ALL to agree to get TOGETHER and fulfill this mission along with the Pope to put this consecration into action?
Of course, also need our Pope to start this plan, too. Wish our Pope Francis to be a real strong Marian devotee like St. John Paul...
Could some one or more explain or clarify this matter....sorry, it just seems confusing. Thanks!
It’s at a TLM
But the St Michael prayer is often recited after a public rosary not associated with a TLM
Yes, it is what I said.
The wonderful prayers after Low Mass (obviously referring to the TLM) were scrubbed out in the NO mass.
Our bishop has encouraged the St. Michael prayer to be prayed after Holy Masses and my pastor hasn't forgotten, yet!
Safe under our angels' wings!
So what did Yves Dupont's solution/answer for this darkest hour?
It's a very interesting talk, with a lot of information about Our Lady of Fatima, which I hadn't been aware of.
Also, beginning at the 41:58 mark, Michael Matt says that Cardinal Oddi (in a published interview) believed that the Third Secret had everything to do with the Vatican II Council.
The Third Secret Controversy—Part VIII
The Testimony of Msgr. Silvio Oddi
Silvio Oddi, ordained a priest on May 31, 1933, was a Vatican diplomat, mostly in the Middle East, from 1938 to 1962. In spite of his reputation as a "conservative," he was named "cardinal" by Paul VI in 1969, and became a member of the "curia" from 1979 until his retirement in 1985. Statements which he made in interviews granted in 1990, as well as in his Memoirs, published in 1995, have shed much light on the Third Secret Controversy.
The first of these interviews was given for the "Catholic" journal Il Sabato, and published in its edition of March 17, 1990:
By now everyone acknowledges that Cardinal Silvio Oddi has one virtue that is extremely rare in the present-day ecclesiastical environment: the frankness and freedom with which he states his views. The interview which follows is one more proof of this. It has for its theme one of the enigmas that during this century has most moved the collective religious imagination: the Third Secret of Fatima. It is a matter which took on contemporary relevance again last month, following the publication in 30 DAYS of a letter from Sister Lucia, one of the three visionaries to whom the Mother of God appeared on May 13, 1917. Referring to the upheavals in eastern Europe, the Portuguese nun wrote: "I believe it is an action of God in the world from the danger of an atomic war that could destroy it." Many have seen in these words the confirmation that the Third Secret has something to do with the current developments in the USSR, as if the Virgin Mary had prophesied and mysteriously guided Gorbachev's plan of perestroika. This view has ended in attributing to these political events the miraculous character of a spiritual and religious rebirth.
ARE YOU ALSO OF THIS OPINION?
CARDINAL ODDI: No, on the contrary, I remain very skeptical. I believe I knew John XXIII quite well, since I spent a number of years at his side when he was at the nunciature in Paris. If the Secret had concerned realities consoling for the Church like the conversion of Russia or the religious rebirth of eastern Europe, I believe that he would have brought pressure to bear to make the Secret public. By temperament he did not hesitate to communicate joyful things (it has been revealed that Cardinal Roncalli in a number of letters to friends practically announced his election to the papacy). But when I asked him during an audience why in 1960, when the obligation to keep the secret had come to an end, he had not made public the last part of the message of Fatima, he responded with a weary sigh. He then said: "Don't bring that subject up with me, please ..."
DID YOU EVER SPEAK WITH SISTER LUCIA?
CARDINAL ODDI: Yes, in 1985. I had gone to Portugal to celebrate solemnly the anniversary of the apparitions, and I did not resist the desire to exchange a few words with her. Obviously I did not ask her to reveal the Secret to me but I asked her if she was aware of the reason why the Church had decided not to make it public.
AND SISTER LUCIA, WHAT DID SHE SAY?
CARDINAL ODDI: She said that in May 1982 she had spoken about it with John Paul II, who had made a pilgrimage to Fatima to render thanks to Our Lady a year after the attempted assassination in St. Peter's Square. Together they had decided that it was more opportune not to reveal the Secret. For fear, she explained to me, that it might be "misinterpreted." The same explanation, I am told, was given by the Holy Father during his visit to Germany. This attitude of the Church reinforced in me a theory that I had had for a number of years ...
AND WHAT IS THAT?
CARDINAL ODDI: What happened in 1960 that might have been seen in connection with the Secret of Fatima? The most important event is without a doubt the launching of the preparatory phase of the Second Vatican Council. Therefore I would not be surprised if the Secret had something to do with the convocation of Vatican II…
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
CARDINAL ODDI: From the attitude Pope John showed during our conversation, I deduced—but it is only an hypothesis—that the Secret might contain a part that could have a rather unpleasant ring to it... But we all know that... many sad things... took place in conjunction with the Council. I am thinking, for example, of the number of priests who have abandoned the priesthood: it is said that there have been 80,000 ...
AND WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF ALL THIS?
CARDINAL ODDI: This: that I would not be surprised if the Third Secret alluded to dark times for the Church: grave confusions and troubling apostasies within Catholicism itself... If we consider the grave crisis we have lived through since the Council, the signs that this prophecy has been fulfilled do not seem to be lacking ...
Greater details were forthcoming in the November 11, 1990 edition of Trenta Giorni, an "international Catholic" monthly. Msgr. Oddi gave these details in "memoir" form:
Like the priests and all the faithful, I have become interested in the Third Secret of Fatima. As it is known that it was to be revealed in 1960 unless Sister Lucia had died earlier, we were all waiting for that year to arrive. But 1960 has come and gone, and nothing has been announced. As secretary to John XXIII when he was in Paris, I took advantage of the trust he placed in me to tell him frankly:
"Most Holy Father, there is one thing for which I cannot forgive you."
"What?" he asked.
"Having the world in suspense for so many years and then watching 1960 come; several months have gone by and nothing about the secret has been made known."
Roncalli answered: "Don't speak to me about this."
I replied: "If you don't want me to I will say no more, but I can't keep the people from doing so. The interest is spontaneous; I must have delivered a hundred sermons and speeches announcing the revelation."
"I told you not to speak to me about it anymore."
I didn't persist, but I wanted to get to the bottom of the story. Then I went to Msgr. Capovilla, his private secretary, and asked: "Have you opened the secret?"
"Yes, we opened it."
"Who was present?"
"There was the Pope"—he told me—"Cardinal Ottaviani, and I, but we couldn't understand it since it was handwritten and in Portuguese. So we called a Portuguese monsignor who worked in the Secretariat of State."
I, who knew John XXIII very well, am sure that the secret contained nothing good. Roncalli didn't like to hear about scandals or punishments. From that I conclude that it contained something about prohibition, punishment, or disaster...
At this point let me advance a hypothesis: that the Third Secret of Fatima pre-announces something terrible the (Vatican II) Church has done... something whose consequences were very painful, with a tremendous decline in religious practice. And that later, following a great suffering, the Faith would return. Yes, this may be the content of the secret. But if this were true, the fulfillment of the secret has already been observed, for the crisis in the Church is visible to all. And the most alert souls recognized it years ago.
As an example, Oddi lamented the travesty that had taken place in Assisi—the pan-religious "prayer meeting" of 1986:
On that day, I went to Assisi as the Pontifical Legate for the Basilica of St. Francis, and I saw true profanations in some places of prayer. I saw Buddhists dancing around the altar, on which they had put Buddha in the place of Christ, and they were burning incense to the Buddha and venerating it. A Benedictine protested—he was thrown out by the police. I did not protest, but my heart was scandalized. Confusion was apparent on the faces of the Catholics who were attending the ceremony. I thought: if at this moment the Buddhists were to distribute bread consecrated to Buddha, these people would be capable of agreeing to eat it, perhaps with a greater devotion than when they receive the (Novus Ordo) host.
Lastly, Msgr. Oddi summed up his position on the Third Secret in his book of memoirs, Il Tenero Mastino di Dio, published in 1995:
The prophecy of Fatima was completely defied! It is a lack of sense, I would say, because according to the interpretation that seems to me most worthy of consideration, the Third Secret—which John XXIII and his successors thought inopportune to reveal—is not about a supposed conversion of Russia, still far from becoming a reality, but regards the "revolution" in the (Vatican II) Church. From (this) Council… so many innovations were born that they appear to constitute a true internal revolution.
In conclusion to this series, it is amazing to note that, after 10 years of denial, Ratzinger has begun to reverse his position on the Third Secret. In 2000, Ratzinger had maintained steadfastly that the Third Secret regarded the past: "No great mystery is revealed; nor is the future unveiled."
But on his flight bound for Fatima, on May 11, 2010, Ratzinger was asked by a journalist whether the Third Secret might have something to do with the current sexual abuse scandal. Ratzinger replied: "Beyond the great vision... there are indications of the reality of the Church's future..." It should be noted that questions from journalists like this are pre-screened by the Vatican.
Two days later, on May 13, 2010, Ratzinger included this in his homily at Fatima: "We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic message is complete."
Was it more double-speak, or a change in policy? The mystery, as we have noted before, continues......
(emphases in red are mine - SgC)
In 1984 Pope John Paul II did not name Russia specifically in the consecration.
He did consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Union with the Bishops so there is no doubt great graces flowed from this consecration including the collapse of communism in the East.
I tend to look at it as a partial success whilst we await a Pope who will have the grace to specifically name Russia in union with all of the bishops of the world (despite the objections of the Russian Orthodox Church).
Dupont's book outlines prophecies from various sources through the millenia.
In the introduction he says every human being on earth needs to repent, pray and do penance.
Like at Nineveh.
Thank God for the Benedictine priest who protested! He was booted out by the police for awakening the conscience of all the Catholics present at that blashemous syncretic mass.
You are right that it was removed. It was all part of the new "paradigm" and it left us even more defenseless. It may have been Mother Angelica who started the return but thanks be to God now many priests pray the prayers at the end of Mass. I notice this in the on line Masses I have been attending.
Powerful true statement, cuts right to the
heart of the issue.
And we have St John Paul’s words that I posted before in this thread that the Third Secret contained a description of a world-wide maelstrom. Anything else is guesswork, about a Council.
We must continue to pray for the "liberty and exaltation of Holy Mother the Church" in our words and our ACTIONS.
The most important thing in the liberty and exaltation of the Holy Mother Church is the TRUTH.
We know that hiding the truth about sexual abuse by our clergy only led to the eventual loss of respect for, and trust in, the Church by millions of people.
The same applies in this matter of the Third Secret and Vatican II.
It is not true that mere guesswork is involved in saying that the Third Secret warns us about a bad Council and a bad Mass.
I will repost here the articles that have been discussed before, which allow us to know that this was indeed part of the Third Secret.
Francis and the Third Secret of Fatima
With events in the Church pointing more and more to the fulfilment of the Third Secret of Fatima, it is interesting to note that in Archbishop Vigano’s 11-page testimony of August 22 wherein the pope and 32 high-ranking Church officials were implicated in the sexual-abuse of minors, the archbishop cited the crux of the Third Secret, saying:
“The corruption has reached the very top of the Church's hierarchy”
This calls to mind the now famous statement of Cardinal Mario Ciappi, who read the Third Secret and who was personal papal theologian to Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II. In a personal communication to a professor Baumgartner of Salzburg, Ciappi said:
“In the Third Secret it is foretold, among other things,
that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top”
Among those who have read and commented on the Third Secret, we find this common thread in that it concerned the great apostasy of the last times and how the satanic infiltration of heresy would occur at the very highest levels of the Church and filter down to the man in the pew.
None less than the pope himself let out with a historic S.O.S. concerning this latter day apostasy when, on the occasion of the 60th Anniversary of Our Lady’s last apparition at Fatima, he said:
“The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic World. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to its summit. Apostasy, the loss of the faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels within the Church.” (Pope Paul VI, October 13, 1977)
What the pope was giving us was the gist of the Third Secret of Fatima, namely, that Satan would subvert the Church’s ruling body and then use this fallen hierarchy to precipitate the misguidance and destruction of the Church we are seeing today.
Note that it was exactly 60 years after Fatima that Pope Paul gave us what we can safely call the heart of the Third Secret—the long-awaited Secret that was supposed to be released by 1960, but never was. According to Sr. Lucy of Fatima, it was the expressed wish of the Blessed Virgin that the Secret be released by 1960.
Before his election to the papacy as Pius XII, Eugene Cardinal Pacelli in 1931 made a highly prophetic statement in response to the Fatima Third Secret.
“I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a Divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy…. I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the true Faith of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past. A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God.”
Hence, we can understand the significance of 1960 as the appointed year for disclosing the Third Secret, since it was only two years later that they would convene the Second Vatican Council, setting into motion this insidious departure from tradition that would leave the Holy City “half in ruins.” Our Lady was attempting to avert this disaster to the Church.
What we have seen since the Council is a new epoch of denial where the Church has lost confidence in Tradition while seeking ecumenical unity with man. This is what Cardinal Pacelli apparently meant when he said that the Church “will be tempted to believe that man has become God.”
A Bad Council
More than once it has surfaced that the Third Secret of Fatima spoke of “a bad council and a bad Mass.” This was reported by the Fatima Crusader in May 2009 and again by One Peter Five in May 2016. According to both reports, it wasn't long after the supposed publication of the Third Secret by the Vatican in June 2000 that Cardinal Ratzinger [now Benedict XVI] told his good friend Fr. Ingo Dollinger—a long-time friend and spiritual child of St. Padre Pio—that there is still part of the Third Secret that they have not published.
“There is more than what we published,” Ratzinger said. He went on to tell Fr. Dollinger that the unpublished part of the Third Secret speaks of “a bad council and a bad Mass” that was to come. (One Peter Five, May 15, 2016)
Consider now the prediction of the nineteenth century Freemason Canon Roca, who said that “the liturgy of the Roman Church will shortly undergo a transformation at an ecumenical council … to deprive the Church of its supernatural character.” This certainly seems to gel with the prediction of “a bad council and a bad Mass.”
Among the instructions that accompanied this “bad council” was the September 26, 1964, Instruction on the Liturgy, Inter Oecumenici, which outlined the new ruling for the Mass and sanctuary. Section 91 says:
The main altar should preferably be freestanding, to permit walking around it and celebration facing the people.
This unprecedented change was calculated to bring about a shift of focus where the emphasis is on the community. This was the essential part of “the suicide of altering the Faith in Her liturgy” that Cardinal Pacelli (later Pius XII) dreadfully prophesied after being presented with the Third Secret.
Unfortunately, many lash-out, arguing that the gates of hell can never harm the Church this way, but this argument holds no water. When Christ said that the gates of hell would never prevail against his Church he was tipping us off to the fact that the infernal gates would wage battle against his Church, but he assured us at the same time that the enemy would never succeed in eliminating the Church altogether.
From the scriptures we know that most of the Church would fall into apostasy in the end, leaving only a remnant to meet with Christ at his Second Coming, but what we didn’t know until modern times was that the Church through the misdirection of a historic council would become the enemy stronghold wherewith to advance this apostasy.
Needless to say, the powers of darkness are waging their final battle against the Church as several popes and saints warned would happen. St. Paul himself tells us that “in the last days, shall come dangerous times.” (2 Timothy 3:1)... “For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine.” (4:3)
The Church is truly in the grips of the worst crisis of its history, a crisis in which every member of the Church is being tried for his valor and strength. (Apoc. 3:10) It is a test to see if we will remain allegiant to the rule of tradition or flow with the new order of change that has ensued since the Council.
The Third Secret was about how the devil would succeed in sowing disobedience into the Church through obedience. The church today indeed is being guided by temptation under the illusion of divine guidance because the dark powers are using hierarchical rank to mislead the faithful into error, so great is the “diabolical disorientation” wrought by these “spirits of wickedness in the high places.” (Eph. 6:12)
The recent canonization of Pope Paul VI only adds to the disorientation, since Francis is simply using this as a political tool to try to “canonize” the post-conciliar “reform” which Catholics today erroneously attribute to Pope Paul VI. The canonization is also a skillful means of warding off conservative backlash in the face of the pope’s move earlier this year to reexamine Humane Vitae. The pope in 2016 had even contradicted Pope Paul’s condemnation of artificial contraception, saying that “avoiding pregnancy [via contraception] is not an absolute evil.”
Barque on the Verge of Capsizing
It was for good reason that His Holiness Benedict XVI said on July 15, 2017 that the Church “is on the verge of capsizing.” His Eminence Cardinal Burke echoed a similar note last year when he said: “Perhaps we have arrived at the end times.” (Catholic Herald, Nov. 30, 2017)
Burke’s words are certainly warranted. Since 2013, the Vatican has repeatedly invited pro-abortion advocates to come and speak to the Church about their vision of a "depopulated" world and in June 2017 the Vatican committed the treason of conferring a pontifical honor on abortion activist Lilianne Ploumen. (Lepanto Institute, Jan 12, 2018)
With this type of collusion, it shouldn’t surprise us that members of the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life are conceding to arguments that "some" abortions are morally acceptable, while religious communities are "celebrating" homosexuality. It is no secret that the Vatican in spring 2017 was home to a cocaine-fueled gay sex-orgy that had to be busted by Vatican police. Vatican gay orgy: 12 facts you need to know
What are we to expect when Pope Francis has appointed a number of gay sympathizers to key positions in the Church and Vatican? Francis even told a practicing homosexual in May 2018 that he should accept his gay-orientation on the grounds that “God made you that way” (USA Today, May 21, 2018), so what else can we expect? “By their fruits you shall know them.” (Matt. 7:30)
One ray of hope is that under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI could still disclose the Third Secret of Fatima before his death, since this would confirm to all that the post-conciliar "reform" wasn’t the work of God after all. This would vindicate restorationists and motivate the Church Militant to come forward with more vigor to fight these changes. Is this likely to happen? Alas, no; in my opinion it is rather unlikely. But with God nothing is impossible. So why not pray for just such an eleventh-hour reprieve?
In the meantime, we follow St. Paul's remedy to withstand the “operation of error” of the last times:
Stand fast, and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. (2 Thess. 2:14)
(some of the emphases are mine - SgC)
Separate names with a comma.