God is outside of time and already knows the prayers and Masses said in the future for the soul...St Padre Pio
There is at least one chronological division in time from the moment Redemption effectively occurs, separating us into two groups: those who accepted it until the moment of death and those who rejected it.
MARK 9:43-50 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
ok. I wasn't sure what you meant by your other post. I have no way of knowing about that, it would be God's judgement. I just know I don't want to go there!
Upon reading the article below, I had the impression that the belief of some orthodox individuals about hell undermines the dualistic logic that pervades the concept in our Church and in almost all historical Protestantism. I think that leaving Peter’s fold cost them a significant portion of the historical truths about the faith they themselves vow to defend. https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/the-truth-about-heaven-and-hell/
I notice that not all Orthodox think this. Some think of it as an actual separation as we do. My own impression is that folks at the Vatican like Modernist heretics everywhere do not believe in hell at all. So the Orthodox are probably closer to us than the Vatican itself I kind of think of hell as a place of Mercy as well as Justice. A place were they can be shielded from God's presence. St Paisios foretold that we would soon be one because in the Light of all that us happening in the World being separate would be silly This is in line with the Vision of the two pillars of St John Bosco.
I think I would feel spiritually far, far closer to the Orthodox at the moment than I would to Rome. I think anyone who clings to the Authentic Magisterium of the Catholic Church would feel this way. How could anyone feel close to Apostates?
I frankly think it would be worth trying a dialogue of unification with the Orthodox, but the question is where to find a branch of theirs that is closer to us, for example, in theology concerning the existence of hell. I saw a subtitled video in Portuguese of the Orthodox Patriarch Cyril saying that the prayers of the faithful can save souls from hell; I consider this a confusing admission of the existence of purgatory. Working on a joint commission to develop a common understanding of this might be a good idea, but how many of them would be willing? I believe the main problem with Orthodoxy is that you always need the luck to find a holy spiritual father like Seraphim of Sarov or Elder Atonite, while in the Catholic faith we have written guarantees of the true light in the documents of the ecumenical councils and the infallible teaching of the popes.
I reviewed the video featuring the Orthodox Patriarch Kirill, and he actually mentions that the prayers of the faithful can change someone's destiny after death, but he does not explicitly mention hell. However, this indirectly points to purgatory.
I don't think they believe in Purgatory either. The Poor Souls have almost been abandoned by the Church in this world. It's interesting that Our Lady appeared at Knock after 100 days of Masses for the Holy Souls..
East and West will become one when their hearts are melted and purified in the Furnace of an immense affliction. One that is almost upon us
It must be the loneliest feeling in all Creation to be stuck in the Purification of the hereafter with no prayers But I hope and believe some of our prayers and suffrages pour down to help our dear Protestant and Orthodox brethren.
I remember reading something Padre Pio once said that went along the lines of being able to pray for the lives of people before they died after the fact. Because God is beyond time, He will account for prayers said in the future when it comes to a person's final destination. So it isn't so much that the judgement happened and then we are praying for release. But rather God has already taken into account prayers from the future.
Yes, I've read explanations of what Padre Pio said that align with what you've posted. I think that the Orthodox do share our belief that nothing impure can enter Heaven, therefore a process of purgation must happen after death. They just don't believe in a place called purgatory, and I'm not sure that we Catholics are obliged to believe that purgatory is an actual place. Rather, it's a state or condition of the soul going through purgation. We don't know how long it takes to complete the purgation because it's outside our time, so the purgation could happen almost instantly. When we get indulgences for a specified period of time (I'm not sure whether the Church still gives time specific indulgences), that doesn't mean that, say, a 1,000 year indulgence means 1,000 years less time in purgatory. It means that the severity of our purgation will be mitigated to the extent that would have applied had we done 1,000 years of penance on earth. That's my understanding. Hope I've got it right and am open to correction. I don't recall Purgatory ever being listed as a hurdle needing to be overcome in discussions on reunification with the Orthodox. I thought that the papacy and the filioque were the big issues, but I've never paid it much attention.
The fact that they do not believe exactly in purgatory is not such a significant obstacle to reunification, but the fact that some of them do not believe in the existence of eternal torment is. Add to this the theology of Gregory Palamas on the distinction between the essence and the energies of God, with the former, in the Orthodox view, being inaccessible to us. Any revision of this doctrine, so deeply rooted in Orthodoxy in general, would amount to diminishing the level of sanctity of one of the most prominent saints in their entire theology.
Yes, although the way annulments seem to have been easily available in some dioceses might give the Orthodox the impression that theirs is a more honest way of dealing with broken marriages. The fact that the Church's official guidelines are being ignored or mishandled probably doesn't cut much ice with the Orthodox. Evidently, past Popes and the current Pope believe(d) that unity is achievable despite all the hurdles. I think that they are very close to reaching agreement on the filioque. In my opinion, national churches are a major problem with Orthodoxy, a flaw that's also common in Protestantism. The fact that the Orthodox have a valid Eucharist and Apostolic succession puts them closer to us than any other Christian denomination so, please God, unity will be achieved. I came across this article which you might find interesting. It's about the Russian Philosopher Solovyev who wanted the Orthodox to unite with Rome: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/an-eastern-voice-crying-in-the-wilderness I know precious little about Solovyev and, frankly, from what I've read about him he strikes me as a bit of a flake but he seems to have hit the nail on the head regarding the Orthodox problems.
Every time I encounter the schism and the theology behind it, it always feels like I am entering into a world of confusion, personalities, politics and agendas. It has a stifling air to it all. It is as though there is a spirit of disunity instead of a motivating spirit of unity. I was taken aback by this statement. "The empire “deserved to fall.” Especially it deserved to fall before Islam. Why? Because Islam is “simply sincere and logical Byzantinism, free from all its inner contradictions.” Islam is in fact “the frank and full reaction of the spirit of the east against Christianity.” I had never considered the possibility that the 4th Crusade might have been a chastisement from God, which weakened the east and led to muslim forces conquering it. The predominant faith in Europe currently is in the material world, which IMO has also opened the door to for the Islamification of Europe. So I believe there is something to this. I don't believe unification is possible unless God provides the means, and I don't think this will happen until the Gospels are taken seriously by both east and west in general.
Indeed, the more I learn the more I realise how little I know. And yes, the spirit of disunity in the Church is a direct contradiction of the prayer of Jesus that we all would be one. There's a channel on YouTube named Real Crusades History that does a good job of countering the anti-Catholic narrative about the Crusades. I found it thanks to a recommendation from Brian Holdsworth. I'll post below one of his videos about the 4th Crusade. I think that the 4th Crusade is an example of how we bring our troubles on ourselves and that major changes in the world tend not to happen in a vacuum. In wars the innocent suffer with the guilty, so the sacking of Constantinople was more a case of God's permissive will. Basically, the Byzantines were in self-destruct mode prior to the 4th Crusade. There were coups and counter-coups in Constantinople. Constantinople wasn't included in the plans for the Crusade. This video explains what happened but there's also another video worth watching because it gives more detail about the corruption in the Byzantine Empire at that time: I have faith that the Holy Spirit will reunite both lungs of the Church. Our Lady of Fatima told us that Russia will be converted. I believe her. Whether it happens in my lifetime is God's decision. We can hope and pray. Meantime, I prefer not to be manipulated into fearing Muslims or other designated groups of people by those whose solution will be to bring order from the chaos they have created. They have the knack of the faithless to know the exact button to press for stoking fear and hatred. No prizes for guessing the source of that particular skill. In the end, we will be judged on love - self-giving love of the kind that does unto others as we would have them do unto us. I can't recommend this article highly enough because it explains so well why God in His infinite love created us and why Jesus suffered for us: https://adoremus.org/2024/05/saint-athanasius-on-divinization/ I posted it on the Signs thread. I doubt many people bothered to read it but it's worth posting twice.
I believe that the Islamic expansion that Benedict XVI associated with violence in 2006 (for which he was accused of Islamophobia) was indeed a divine response to the disunity of the churches. In a certain way, regarding unity with the Orthodox, there is the advantage that no council, catechism, or scripture from either church mandates mutual killing among the faithful of both. Unfortunately, we cannot say the same about Islam. I believe that theological differences present a significant impediment to the union of the two churches, such as the denial of the existence of hell in some branches of Orthodoxy, which contradicts the message of Fatima, where hell was shown to three small children, a vision that still leads many people to accuse the Church of using fear as a tool of domination. Other fundamental differences include the distinction between God's essence and energies, which I have already mentioned, and which pose a serious risk to their Eucharistic theology. According to Gregory Palamas, an Orthodox theologian, God's essence is inaccessible to us, while in the Eucharist we have the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ under the appearance of Bread and Wine, essentially the very Incarnate Word of God. I am fully convinced and hopeful that the union of the churches will happen because it was foretold in Fatima, but this union will not be the result of a Masonic ecumenism that seeks to ignore fundamental differences essential for salvation, as was denounced in the third secret of Fatima. Rather, it will come through the direct miracle of divine intervention. Before anyone accuses me of hate speech for pointing out these differences with Orthodoxy, I must say that some Orthodox have no problem expressing this attitude towards us, even going so far as to question the sanctity of St. Francis of Assisi.
