The "New and Divine" holiness

Discussion in 'Mother of God' started by lynnfiat, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. Byron

    Byron Powers

    Seriously, they both loved Fr Gobbi. I remember those days. I had met Fr Gobbi twice, he was very special. The “Marian Movement of Priests” book truly explains pretty much what we are going through today. The information on freemasonry is mind blowing. I promise you the devil wouldn’t have wanted that book printed. It is difficult to accept certain testimonies without the Vatican putting its official stamp on it, but we do have great priests like Sheen. He was extremely controversial at the time, and yet made such a difference in guiding us to the truth. Malachi Martin is also someone who unveiled the corruption of the Church. Today we are much better informed, thanks to these pioneers of the faith. Even Mother Angelica struggled to get the truth out. So, I can understand caution if the Church has not given an official stamp of approval to certain apparitions. But if the Church has not condemned them or its priests, then there’s no harm in discussing it. We can learn so much on what to expect from the evil one. And when this evil one appears as a lamb, we can be ready for him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  2. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    The problematic issue is millenarianism.
    It’s in Fr Gobbi’s unapproved works and of course, in Luisa’s. It’s against the Scriptures and the Catholic catechism. It’s not that Fr Gobbi wasn’t a nice man.
     
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  3. Christy1983

    Christy1983 Archangels

    There is no harm at all in discussing it, as long as it's clear Fr. Gobbi's writings are his private meditations, not "what the Blessed Mother told Fr. Gobbi." Being controversial is not the issue. Bishop Fulton Sheen (was he controversial?) stuck to the Faith and never claimed private revelation. Fr. Gobbi ventured beyond in certain respects--as Heavenly Hosts noted-- and that needs to be part of any discussion.

    Edited to add: "Not condemned" is a pretty low bar. The Catholic Answers article cites six areas in which Fr. Gobbi's writings conflict with the Catechism. Here is one:

    On the Final Judgment

    Fr. Gobbi: “The return (Second Coming) of Jesus in glory [will take place] before His final coming for the Last Judgment”(2). “Therefore, we can surely be certain that the Lord will appear and return to this earth for a period of time before the final end of the world” (6).

    Catechism: “The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory” (CCC 1040).

    The Nicene Creed: “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.”

    Scripture also verifies that the Last Judgment will take place at Jesus’ Second Coming—not, as Fr. Gobbi says, at some other “final coming” (cf. Rev. 20, Matt. 25:31–45, 2 Pet. 3:7).

    .​
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
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  4. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    This is one very important point!!!
    That is millenarianism and it has been condemned by the Church.
     
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  5. Maybe I can offer some clarification. It is written as a defense and I have found it quite edifying to reread again after so many years. I say this because in my reading of it just yesterday(!), and now knowing a little more than as I believe I knew the first several times I had read it in the past, I can clearly see how certain expected events—most especially Our Lady’s Triumph—is not only tied in with these messages, but also highlighted by all She reportedly communicated to Father Gobbi. I hope you can make the time to read it with open eyes and hearts. (I know you all are people readily inclined to do that already, but I still think it needs to be said, since things like this—in the moment and not yet given the permanent seal of approval/disapproval—may seem like a waste of time. But, for me it certainly was not. God love you all for your open, prayerful, discerning hearts!

    Here it is:
    https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4182
     
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  6. Christy1983

    Christy1983 Archangels

    Sorry, Advocata, Fr. Roux lost me with this line:

    There is the question of correspondence sent to Fr. Gobbi from a secretary from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) who, in his personal and unofficial letter to Fr. Gobbi requested and advised that Fr. Gobbi should not claim in the book's introduction that the messages are from the Blessed Mother, but rather that they are the product of his own personal meditation. This letter in no way constituted an official decree.

    Really? Do you think THE SECRETARY of the CDF just whips off unofficial notes "advising" someone not to make claims of personal revelations in a book? Archbishop Bertone was directly under Cardinal Ratzinger, who was Prefect. The "a secretary" is so disingenuous. He's trying to diminish the role of the archbishop, who is a Vatican official. So too are Fr. Roux's comparisons to Fatima, St. Faustina and Padre Pio. There are far more cases of alleged messages that, when put to the test, were not deemed worthy.

    And just because JPII celebrated Mass with Fr. Gobbi does not mean he authorized Fr. Gobbi to claim private revelations or agreed with the content of them. JP II likely celebrated Masses with many different leaders of religious orders and movements, to stay informed about his Church.

    The Catholic Culture story contains clear statements of Fr. Gobbi's statements going against the Catechism. These are far more persuasive than statements by Fr. Roux, a "believer."
    .
     
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  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    As I said before, millenarianism is condemned in the Catholic Catechism. As I understand it, Fr. Gobbi AND Luisa are millenarianists.
     
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  8. Byron

    Byron Powers

    Both of you are correct in believing in our Catechism. And of course millenarianism is condemned, but are you sure Fr Gobbi’s supposed “locutions” are just that? What about the approved apparitions of Our Lady of Good Success, or our Church fathers statements, let alone Scripture, or even Papal teachings? Even the Venezuelan seer Maria Esperanza said, there will be a middle coming before the end of the world. One that will bring the fire of the Holy Spirit to the world. Oh wouldn’t that be wonderful? I do believe the approved Fatima messages are not about end of the world. Our Lady’s triumph is what Fr Gobbi said, it’s not magic, but a process. We are today in the middle of a Church Crisis. Many Catholics don’t believe in the sacraments. The world is in darkness. Our Catechism does not explain explicitly what we are going through today. But it does teach that before the end of the world there will be hope. Our beautiful Mother in heaven has been working overtime to bring that hope for the times we are living. She has been preparing us through her apparitions from Akita to even appearing in 1948 to a novice in the Carmelite order in Lipa City, Philippines. Oh what an amazing apparition! It took till 2009, to finally reverse the decree of 1951. It is no longer banned. Fr Gobbi continued Our Lady’s task to lead us back to Jesus. There is hope through his locutions. The sacraments will be accepted once more by many, especially the true Presence in the Blessed Sacrament. Well, like Fatima’s prophecy on the wars, we await for Her promise and that miracle the world needs to bring true peace to the world.
     
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  9. Christy1983

    Christy1983 Archangels

    I do believe in the Catechism! And I worry about those who ignore conflicts with it because they like a particular messenger.

    Here is more on Fr. Gobbi's mistaken messages from the Catholic Answers article:

    "On the Establishment of Christ’s Kingdom in the World

    Fr. Gobbi: “Christ will return in glory back to this earth in order to build His Kingdom and . . . only at the end will He return as Judge” (4). Without the final judgment, “Christ will establish His kingdom in the world after having defeated and annihilated His enemies” (3).

    Catechism: “The kingdom will be fulfilled . . . not by a historic triumph of the Church. . . but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause the Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of the passing world” (677).

    Fr. Gobbi is saying Christ will have his victory without the Last Judgment, while the Church teaches that Jesus’ victory will actually “take the form of the Last Judgment.”

    "On the Thousand-Year Reign
    Fr. Gobbi: At the coming of Jesus in glory, there will be the “first resurrection” of “only those particular believers who had died as martyrs. Their unique role will be to partake in the sovereign earthly reign of Christ for this thousand-year period” (5). Although Fr. Gobbi concedes this reign may not consist of a literal thousand years, he says the resurrected martyrs will reign with Christ on earth for a period of time—a temporal earthly reign—before the Last Judgment.

    Catechism: “The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological [final] judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism” (676).

    The Companion to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: Note for paragraph 676 quotes the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Decree of 19 July, 1944 (DS 3839), which says: “In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of a system of mitigated millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated millenarianism cannot be taught safely.”

    And in the fine catechism The Teaching of Christ: A Catholic Catechism for Adults (Bishop Donald W. Wuerl, R. Lawler, OFM Cap., and Thomas Lawler, eds., Our Sunday Visitor [1991]), we read, “Some people have mistakenly come to expect a Messianic kingdom in which Christ together with the saints would rule a temporal kingdom on earth for a thousand years (hence the term ‘millenarianism’) before the final entrance into heaven. But such millenarianism is alien to the message of faith. The Church’s teaching associates Christ’s second coming proximately with the resurrection of the dead, with final judgment, and with the glory of His eternal kingdom” (469).

    Fr. Gobbi’s explanation of the thousand-year reign clearly falls into the category of “mitigated millenarianism,” which “cannot be taught safely.”


     
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  10. Father Roux, in my humble opinion, clearly differentiates between the two “M’s”. That’s why he wrote it—as a defense. I’ll stand by what I posted. I do agree with Byron’s thoughts on this. They make so much common sense to me. Time will tell all. Peace!
     
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  11. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    Well said! "For the Lord God doth nothing without revealing His secrets to His servants the prophets." Amos 3:7
     
  12. Christy1983

    Christy1983 Archangels

    You can find a Bible verse to reinforce many different conclusions! I am not saying Fr. Gobbi is a false prophet to be put to death, but he has been wrong in some of his messages--which are his private meditations. I would not apply the verse from Amos to Fr. Gobbi.

    Deuteronomy 18:20-22

    20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.” 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
    .
     
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  13. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    "...at the 'end time' the Lord's Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; He will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace. Catechism of the Catholic Church

    "Empowered by the Spirit and drawing upon faiths rich vision, a new generation of Christians is being called to help build a world in which God's gift of life is welcomed, respected and cherished...A new age in which hope liberates us from the shallowness, apathy, and self-absorption which deaden our souls and poison our relationships. Dear young friends, the Lord is asking you to be prophets of this new age... - Pope Benedict XVI, Homily, World Youth Day, Sidney Australia, July 20, 2008

    "This is our great hope and our invocation; Your Kingdom come! a Kingdom of peace, justice and serenity, which will re-establish the original harmony of creation."
    Pope John Paul II, Papal Address on Psalm 97, Nov.6, 2002

    "...so the desire for Wisdom leads to a Kingdom." Wisdom 6:20

    Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Your well beloved Spouse.
     
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  14. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    God's time is not ours. As we know, He can change whatever He desires - and does so many times due to the prayers of the faithful. When a time is given for something, that doesn't necessarily mean we are to see it instantly, but not until the FULFILLMENT of that which was spoken of. When Jesus came as an infant, He was in the world, but how many knew that. Perhaps Our Lady's triumph did begin at that time, but the fulfillment we are still awaiting.
    As of the other things you mentioned spoken of by Fr. Gobbi that you do not believe, there have been many theologians who have studied these messages and find nothing against the Churches teachings. I have an explanation of these things in a letter written by Fr. Roux who was head of the MMP in the US, but I am unable to find it right now. If and when I do find it, I will post it here. It is about 5 pages long.
     
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  15. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    This is absolutely untrue!
     
  16. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I beg to differ. We need to continue praying the rosary and asking for discernment. None of the quotes you have posted bolster millenarianism.
     
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  17. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    I believe this says it all:
    "These times are harsh and so the only answer is saints! Saints greater than those of any age. Saints more determined than ever to see the will of God done on earth as it is in Heaven. Saints who want for nothing else but My will. Holy men and women prepared to sacrifice everything of a temporal nature to see My most Holy Will done." (From "Our Father" by Matthew Kelly)
     
  18. Christy1983

    Christy1983 Archangels

    I believe Advocata already published Fr. Roux's reply. It was unconvincing. It did not answer the questions raised in the Catholic Answers article.

    Yes, the Church absolutely needs saints! And that means a willingness to let go of messages and messengers that have not stood the test of time/have not come true or are shown to be out of sync with the truths of the faith.
     
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  19. Ah, but it is true that in time, the questions asked by Catholic Answers will be answered, either by an expert willing to clearly confirm or refute them, or by the gift of time, itself. I’ll be patient. But I stand convinced of the difference between the two “M’s”. For me, Father Roux’s explanations of their difference are substantive. Also, I do not look to Catholic Answers as the end all and be all of knowledge of our Faith. They have come short in the past and on more than one occasion. Additionally, I had to stop listening to their online program because they were clearly off-base at times and it was sorely disappointing.
     
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  20. PS—But, not being an expert of any kind myself, I can actually say that their will be a victory over Satan. It will occur through our Lady’s Triumph. It will not be the final victory, but it will be a temporal one with a time limit. Her foot will be down on satan’s head for a time; he will be chained for a time before the final unleashing during the reign of Antichrist. It will be a time of Christian fortification.
     
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