The mass grave found at Tuam

Discussion in 'Ireland' started by Scolaire Bocht, Jun 9, 2014.

  1. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    Right now the media in Ireland, and even to an extent around the world, have latched onto the discovery of a pit with bodies in it on the site of the workhouse in Tuam as proof of terrible deeds on the part of the nuns who ran a Children's Home on that site during 1925-61.

    Anyway its such a huge issue and creating such a media firestorm that I thought maybe people might like to discuss it here. And also hopefully this article puts these discoveries into a different context: http://www.politics.ie/forum/curren...cal-history-methodology-used.html#post8126454 .
    [That link no longer works, the article in question is posted on this page a few posts down.]
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  2. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    This is why I gave up reading newspapers, got rid of the TV. I think all of what they say are lies. I think they lie about everything.
     
  3. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    I like it much better just to read this board because trying to get to know what God wants takes an awful lot of time and there is so much to pray for. I leave Ireland to Saint Patrick to take care of us. He will not fail us now. I did look at the link you gave Scolaire Bocht. What you wrote there makes perfect sense to me. But the truth is not something that people want to lisen to now.

    Is there such a thing as a poor scholar?
     
  4. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    There is such a thing as a poor scholar, I'm it!lol

    But anyway that link I posted seems to be now lost so I think I will post the article here:

    Introduction

    To begin we might as well clarify what this Tuam Children's Home was exactly. It was, simply put, as the name states, a state run Children's Home, meaning that any child abandoned or apparently unable to survive normally, for whatever reason, in Galway and Mayo (1), was placed by the state here. Also most abandoned children at this period were illegitimate and hence formed the main population of the Home, and later the state also added on a maternity wing to cater specifically for these cases.(2)

    The normal procedure was that boys were catered for until aged 5 and girls until aged 7 1/2 after which they were usually fostered out to the local community, meaning that they lived with local families and received some monies from the state for their upkeep until adulthood. This was an old workhouse practice that the state continued because it worked well enough and was certainly cheaper than paying for the maintenance of the children in the Home, a big consideration for some of the local politicians. At the tail end of the Home's existence, as you get into the 50s, some children were adopted out including some to America (3). If none of these outcomes were feasible then the child might get sent to one of the Industrial schools or in some cases be kept on into adulthood. Finally the mothers of the children stayed on for at least a year after childbirth, that was a rule of the institution in order not to disturb the mental health of the mothers by separating them too early from their children, as was reported on at one of the Council meetings. Also the fathers of the children were chased up by the state for maintenance but only in some cases did they have enough means to afford it and even then it was hard to prove parentage.(4)

    It was entirely run by the state, they decided who was admitted or not, they paid for it, paying the nuns a capitation fee of 10 shillings for each child - which the councillors and media at the time greatly begrudged paying (5) - and the nuns had to care for the children within that fee. The state also owned all the land and buildings at all times (6), directly tendered out for all provisions - everything from coffins (7) to saucepans (8) -, and they also directly employed a Medical Officer to oversee the medical issues. None of these things were in the power of the nuns, the Bon Secours, to change.

    So I would suggest that if people do feel that these institutions did not do a good job (and its hard to be objective as to whether they did or not because the issue these days is tied up with so much anti-Catholic hysteria and because so many commentators seem uninformed as to the difficult conditions, and little money and sometimes food, that nearly everybody had outside those walls during that period in Ireland and even in Europe) they should learn the lessons that it is not a good idea for the state to step in and take children away from their parents or home environment unless absolutely necessary. There is no evidence at all that the Church was in favour of this practice of sometimes arbitrarily taking children out of that environment, which goes so much against all Church teaching, and actually some evidence of the complete opposite, that Church figures opposed the enthusiasm that some social workers and state agencies had for taking children out of their families and placing them into the 'care' of the state.(9)

    But now for the main issue, I would say that local historical research can be a tricky beast at the best of times and I think people have misunderstood the facts here, in particular on these four grounds:


    1. The methodology to arrive at the death rate for the Home

    The story here is that the local historian, Catherine Corless, working in the Registrar's office got copies of a total of 796 death certificates for inmates who died in the Home while it was running in Tuam. The Home was setup in 1925 and closed in 1961 with (10), at least in 1944 anyway, 271 children and 61 mothers staying there during the year.

    Actually for me anyway that is not that huge a figure allowing for the very high infant mortality that you get in Ireland, and pretty much all across the world until better drugs and maternity facilities kick in from about the late 40s on. So it is sad but unfortunately that's the way it was for so many mothers and families all across the world at that time. You also have to allow for the numbers of children who were admitted to the Home because of very difficult domestic circumstances, abject poverty and maybe poor sanitation as well, and the difficulties of raising children who were in some cases completely abandoned by their mothers or indeed where their mothers died during childbirth or a short time later.(11)

    Prof Liam Delaney has been approached as the expert on infant mortality rates for that period in Ireland (mainly 30s and 40s) and among the general population he reckons it was running at 7% for the whole country but rising to 10% in overcrowded Dublin slum areas.(12)

    Comparing that with these figures we begin with an average of 22.11 children dying each year for the 36 years to get the total of 796. Then you divide that figure with the total number of children resident each year to get the annual percentage death rate. We don't know the exact figure for who was resident each year in the Home, because we only have the state death certificates not the Home ledgers, but we do have a 1944 report which stated that 271 children, and 61 mothers, were in the Home then. (In passing I might add that the numbers started off small then rose for the late 20s and into the 30s and 40s and then tailed off again in the 50s.) So you divide that 22.11 by the 271 children, which in the absence of any other figure we will take as the average in the Home each year, which gives you 8%. That leaves you just very slightly above the national average of 7% but below that of the 10% in the Dublin slums. That is as you would expect because on the one hand there was a state run Medical Officer, and nurses, on hand which should boost the figures but on the otherhand the circumstances listed above as regards absent mothers etc are bound to lower them. Also one of the reasons that it was bad in Dublin was because overcrowding could worsen the effects of disease epidemics but the same circumstances could easily apply here, it must have been very difficult for the Home to stop the rest of the children getting whooping cough etc if one got it.

    But also I think this practice of working out the death rate from the state death certificates is fraught with difficulty. When historians go about trying to calculate the mortality rate in an institution like this you would expect them to have access to the Home records which are often very diligently kept. In that you can see who is coming and going out of the Home and you can see clearly who has died in it but the state death certificates on the otherhand are totally different.

    When they were filled out at the time you will find that the place of the death, or more specifically the circumstances under which a person was in that place at that time, was not necessarily the most important detail recorded in the certificate. In those records the obvious thing is to make clear the proper name of the person who died and what of.

    The problem is that you can easily get all kinds of complications here. The Bon Secours nuns, for example, ran a normal hospital in Tuam during most of those years. It was called the Grove and functioned from 1944-2001 and there was at least some crossover between the two institutions because we are told that many of the mothers in the Home worked with the nuns in the hospital. The problem is that it seems possible to this observer that in some, albeit I'd say rare cases, a patient might get transferred from the hospital to the Home who wasn't an inmate there as such. For example if you had a whooping cough epidemic or some such and a child with those symptoms came into the hospital at a time when it was already rampant in the Home they might transfer the child to the Home to quarantine him/her away from the hospital.

    While normally I accept that they wouldn't transfer people across like this, because the Home was a bit out of town and anyway admissions were not normally dealt with by the nuns, and also there was a stigma here, nonetheless you could see that if for example an unwell terminally ill child was in the hospital and had no relatives to look after him/her, and had no use for the more advanced medical facilities, they might again accommodate the child in the Home to relieve the acute bed in the hospital.

    Then obviously that child could have died in the Home and was listed in the death certificate as such but would clearly be skewing our figures. I know that these cases could be rare - although in the absence of definitive records or eye witnesses I don't know how anybody could be sure how it really worked - but I am just highlighting here how state death records would not normally be sufficient on their own to determine the mortality rate in any institution.
     
  5. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    2. Whether the disputed site is a former sewerage tank

    On the old maps the current site and the sewerage tank are quite close to one another for sure but a small space on a map can be quite a distance on the ground!

    In particular all the reports are clear that the disputed site is inside the walls of the former workhouse, e.g. this is a description of the discovery of the site by Frannie Hopkins and Barry Sweeney in 1975:
    The 'sewage tank' is well marked but I would say is clearly outside those walls. In fact the two sites, the 'concrete slab' etc and the marked 'sewage tank' are clearly in two different townlands: the 'tank' is on the site of a kind of pond marked on the very early OS maps in Farrannabox townland and the workhouse is entirely in Toberjarlath townland.(14) Bear in mind we are talking about the sites being separated by the famously huge and very well made and substantial boundary walls of an Irish workhouse. You will find that these walls will also have very extensive foundations as well as the huge extent that can be seen over ground so once that barrier is between the disputed site and the sewerage tank you can be sure there is no crossover between the two. You can see the maps showing that the sewage tank is outside the walls here, beginning with the c.1900 map and following that with the c.1920 one (15):
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    3. What exactly links this burial pit with the nuns and Home of 1925-61?

    Obviously human remains and unmarked burial sites turn up all the time in this country with bodies from as far back as the Bronze Age so why do people so quickly assume that it has anything to do with the nuns and Home who were only there for 36 years? I don't mean to be too hard on these local historians but I would point out that there is no written or eye witness testimony at hand here that in anyway corroborates the idea that these bodies are linked to the Children's Home except the sole point that they were both located on the former workhouse site.

    We know the Children's Home had their own special chaplain and oratory, and state paid Medical Officer, a doctor, on site, and that the Council frequently tendered and purchased coffins for the Home.(16) So its always going to be very very unlikely that these children were not given proper burials and anyway the description of the discovered bodies are obviously referring to ones without coffins (the Famine victims mentioned below were buried with coffins originally but these are now rotted away).

    On the otherhand the site is an old workhouse which obviously had huge death rates during the Famine years and incidentally it was also occupied by the military during the War of Independence and Civil War although that is unlikely to be an issue. Furthermore its also very close to a large working graveyard, the history of which I am not acquainted with but presumably its possible that it extended further in the past than its current boundaries.

    But the question of Famine graves attached to the workhouse is a very important one and always the most likely to furnish an explanation here. It turns out that there was a graveyard inside the workhouse grounds in 1847, and later the workhouse used a number of other sites around the town (at Carrowpeter and at the North of the town along the Ballymote Road).

    You can read about these graveyards here: http://historicgraves.com/blog/miscellanea/probable-workhouse-famine-burials-tuam and there you will discover that in 2012 they accidentally tripped across one such graveyard when they were working on a large water and sewerage scheme for the town. These are adult graves (17), so of course they are not blaming the nuns!, but the interesting thing is that the site uncovered is only about 95 metres away from the current disputed site. Also they only uncovered 11 graves because they were in a hurry to close the site which is actually in the middle of a road.

    The point about this discovery is that it was up against the old walls of the workhouse but still inside it. This means that we can say that the graveyard extends further - it extends further some direction because 11 graves is hardly the full extent of it - towards the houses built in the 1969-75 period and our disputed pit. We know that because if you look at the map you can see that the boundary walls of the workhouse border exactly the 2012 find and the only way to go and still stay within those walls - they won't have a graveyard half in and half out of these very large walls - is back that way, as you can see if you look at the following map:
    [​IMG]

    Now what you have to ask yourself are what are the odds that when they knocked and developed the whole workhouse site, c.7 acres and c.70 houses in total (18), in the 1969-75 period that they would have turned up some Famine bodies from this graveyard bearing in mind that when they were just laying a water main on the main road in 2012 they unearthed 11 bodies? The odds are that the developers and Council at that time to save tedious planning issues, and to maximise the area that would be available for development, just bulldozed through whatever they found on the site, which must have included that graveyard, collected the actual bones and threw them in this pit and sealed it with a concrete slab. Unfortunately I'd say it happens all over Ireland and does not reflect well on builders or the government/County Council, who owned and developed the land, but has nothing whatsoever to do with the nuns or the clergy who were gone long since from this site.


    4. The Absence of Burial Records

    That leaves the question of where those 800 children were actually buried. My guess is that the workhouse had a traditional spot in the large graveyard beside it in Farrannabox, which probably doubled up as a kind of paupers grave for the town, and when the Children's Home came they just continued to use that spot. But then why are there not Church death records showing this, which have been checked, doubtless with the PP in Tuam and maybe with the Archbishop who is also in the town, and are found wanting?

    Because since the Home had its own chaplain and oratory, and the workhouse before it also traditionally had a chaplain, the chances are that that priest kept his own book of baptisms and funerals for the Home. Since he would conduct the funeral himself it is very likely that he is not going to get a separate entry also filled out in the parish registers. This Home register is now no doubt lost, or more likely in the control of the state somewhere, and that explains the absence of the burial records.


    Conclusion

    So for what its worth I would say that we just don't know what the mortality rate was in the institution, in the absence - to date anyway (19) - of the Home records, but what we do know is not out of sync with what we would expect; that this pit where they found the bones is clearly not the 'sewage tank' marked on the c.1920s maps and hence there is no reason to believe it is or ever was a sewerage tank; that the absence of Church funeral records are easily explained and incidentally the lack of headstones is not remarkable at all, they just couldn't afford them and that was true for the majority of people at that time in Ireland; and I would honestly say its 100 to 1 odds against this burial site having anything to do with the nuns and the Children's Home anyway.

    Another fine mess media hypeology has landed us in!lol
     
  6. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    Footnotes
    1. Deputy Mark Killilea, speaking in the Dail on the 4th July 1947: "Our children's home in Tuam is in the same way. Half the patients are from Mayo..."

    2. This is an important article by John Cunningham, a former resident, describing the mix of people in the Home: Connacht Tribune, 24th April 1998, p.46.

    3. See Tuam Herald 27th Nov 1954, p.5.

    4. Details of the efforts to chase up the fathers are given here: Connacht Tribune 25th Jan 1930, p.5.

    5. These two 1928 reports from the Connacht Tribune show that local politicians, and the media it seems, were putting great pressure on the nuns to run the Home for even less money than the small 10 shillings per child per week that they were given: http://www.rabble.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/contractTUAM.png and http://www.rabble.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/TUAM1928.png , and see also Connacht Tribune 14th May 1927, p.16 and same 8th September 1928, p.5.

    6. For example as late as September 1952 its clear the Home was not owned by the nuns (Connacht Sentinel, 9th Sept 1952, p.1).

    7. Contracts for coffins for the Children's Home in Tuam were mentioned in the Connacht Tribune of: 16/8/1927, p.1., 23/2/1929, p.1, 31/8/1929, p.2., 7/9/1929, p.12, 15/3/1930, p.8., 7/2/1931, p.1, 30/1/1932, p.17, 20/2/1932, p.14, 18/2/1933, p.19, 2/2/1935, p.16., 26/2/1938, p.3., 25/2/1939, p.13; and in the Connacht Sentinel of: 23/8/1927, p.1, 28/2/1928, p.1; and the Tuam Herald of 22nd May 1943, p.4.

    8. The matron had to specially apply to get just two burners - saucepans - for the Home: Connacht Tribune 29th Mar 1930, p.4.

    9. This seems to be an example of a somewhat over mighty social worker being too anxious to send children into the state 'care' system:
    "Children's Committal
    S.H.A.O. and N.S.P.C.C. Inspector

    At the meeting held by the Board of Health Commissioner, Mr McGuaigin, of the Galway Homes and Home Assistance Committee at Loughrea on Thursday, the following report was submitted by the superintendent home assistance officer, Mr Heneghan.

    "I visited to-day the home of Mrs K Folan, widow, Merchant's Road, Galway, to see if she would take her two children home from the Children's Home, Tuam. It was Miss Monnelly, S.P.C.C., who sent these children to the Tuam Home. I think Miss Monnelly before sending children to the Tuam Home should have written to Mr Hanafin or consulted the superintendent assistance officer so that provision could be made for these children at their own home.

    "Some time ago Miss Monnelly had three others of the Folan children sent to industrial schools. Mrs Folan had nine children ages 17 1/2 to 1 1/2 years. The two oldest were earning about 10s a week and Mrs Folan was getting 12s a week home assistance. Since the three children were sent away she is getting 8s. a week. She wishes to get home the two children who are in the Tuam home as soon as possible on the understanding that she will be allowed 12s a week home assistance. I recommend that she be allowed the latter amount weekly."

    Mr Heneghan complained Miss Monnelly had no authority to send these children to the Tuam home. Sometimes anticipating an order from a district justice she sends children to the home. While he was acting for Mrs Jordan these children were sent away and he was never acquainted with the matter."
    (Connacht Tribune 16th Aug 1941, p.2.)

    You can see here how the parish priest opposed that same social worker's attempts to put children into the home:

    "Gort poverty

    Miss Monnelly, inspector, N.S.P.C.C., had a batch of summonses at Gort District Court before Mr. W.P. Cahill, D.J. on Saturday to have a number of children in the district committed to the Children’s Home, Tuam, or other suitable homes. In the first application, in the case of a boy of four years of age, Miss Monnelly described the home in which he lived with his parents as a wooden hut, 6 feet by 4 feet, made from bacon boxes placed up against a wall. There was no light or air and the smoke issued through a hole in the roof of the boxes. The parents had no means of subsistence that she could ascertain and the child was delicate, suffering from asthma. The District justice made an order to have the child committed to a home.

    Miss Monnelly said she visited a house in Peterswell and found four children in a straw bed clothed in rags. The children were covered with coarse sacks, those sacks being cut to allow their heads and arms to go through. The children had no other clothing of any kind on them. The place was filthy and the children were filthy also. There was scarcely any food in the house. The children lived nearly five miles from the nearest school and the eldest a 12 years old girl, was unable to read or write. Reading a letter from Fr. Burke, which seemed to state everything was fine, the District Justice adjourned the matter for one month for the priest to come to court to give that evidence in person."
    (Connacht Tribune 1933, reprinted in same 11th April 2008, p.14.)

    Also in reference to an Irish army sergeant being sued for maintenance of an illegitimate child held in Tuam, Canon P MacAlinney said:
    "Care of unmarried mothers
    ...
    If the mistresses of other girls in Galway who got into trouble with members of the National Army regarded them with more Christian charity instead of throwing them and their children on the street they would not find their way into Mrs Smyley's homes. The committee could then sue the putative fathers for the maintenance of the children. That procedure would go a long way to check the evil."
    (Connaught Telegraph24th August 1929, p.3.)

    10. "On Monday last, the Tuam workhouse buildings were taken over by the nuns - Bon Secours - in charge of the Children's Home, which has been transferred from Glenamaddy to Tuam" (Connacht Tribune Sat 16th May 1925, p.11.), then by this date the nuns have left: 2nd December 1961, Tuam Herald, p.5.

    11. For example when the Home was still in Glenamaddy in 1924 we are told that:
    "The mortality rate has been low; a few of the older children died from whooping cough, but the death rate amongst the infants has been higher than it ought to have been because of the difficulties of rearing motherless babies."
    (Connacht Tribune 21st June 1924, p.5.)

    12. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...-investigation-says-academic-expert-1.1822219 .

    13. Irish Times, Supplement, 7th June 2014, p.3.

    14. You can see this at http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,544012,751221,7,9 by switching between the historic 25" and historic 6" maps.

    15. The 2012 archaeological dig is at: GPS: 53.508257 -8.843994, OSI Irish Transverse Mercator: 544015, 751255, in the centre of the road at the junction of the Athenry road and Dublin road estate, south east of the town near the modern graveyard, in Toberjarlath townland.
    And the famous concrete slab burial spot is at: GPS: 53.507875, -8.842642, OSI ITM: 544090, 751193, near the southern boundary of a green area in the centre of a box created by the Athenry road, the two Dublin Road Estate roads, one of which travels southeast/northwest, and Tober Jarlath Road, also in Toberjarlath townland. The exact location of this site was derived by observing the red dot on the national monuments map that you can see here: http://webgis.archaeology.ie/NationalMonuments/FlexViewer/ . Its just outside the town boundary on the Southeast direction out of Tuam.

    16. See footnote 6 above for references to coffins and references to chaplains of the facility are to Rev P J Kelly (Irish Independent 26th Nov 1934, p.11) and Canon Walsh (Irish Independent 10th Jan 1927, p.3).

    17. "Initially the remains of adults were discovered at the junction of the Athenry Road and the Dublin Road Estate and it was immediately sealed off."
    (Connacht Tribune, 19th April 2013, p.16.)

    18. Seventy houses built or planned for that site are mentioned here: Connacht Sentinel 13th March 1973, p.12.

    19. They certainly seem to exist and were not taken away by the nuns:
    "Tuam Town Commissioners, on Tuesday, requested the Assistant Co. Manager, Mr T. M. O'Connor, to make it known that they do not wish all the records which are housed in the Children's Home, Tuam, to be removed to Galway.
    It was recently learned that a move was being made to have the records removed to the strong room in the Co. Council buildings in Galway."
    (Connacht Tribune, 8th Dec 1962, p.9.)
     
  7. Timothius722

    Timothius722 Archangels

    Yes the media lies...90% of the media is paid and bought for by the purveyors of the satanic/globalist agenda. It also does not help that the rabidly anti-Catholic Protestant press runs with these reports and viscously slanders the Catholic Church.
    The enemies of the Church are colluding into a tsunami of attacks. Be prepared ...cause the physical persecution will only increase to the degree that some of us will have to die for our faith.
    I have spoken in the past of a prophetic dream whence me and my wife where being off loaded from a military truck into a detention camp. We where to be martyred. This was no fantasy. It was real...and repeated itself twice. The first dream I woke with tears of sadness...literally bawling. The second dream I woke with tears of great joy...the effects lasting some days afterward.
    I know it seems long in coming...but come it will...do not lose hope. As in the Lord of the Rings..."courage Mary...courage!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2014
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  8. Indy

    Indy Praying

    Please pray that the truth will be revealed and allowed through the media, pray that the evil one's involvement will be exposed and he will be yet again humiliated and defeated by prayer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2014
  9. Miriam

    Miriam Archangels

    800 Dead Kids, Irish Catholic Bashing and the Truth

    Catholic bashing has become the national sport of Ireland. Blaming the Brits for every ill that has ever afflicted Ireland has become passé, and in the former land of saints and scholars the Church is the whipping boy du jour. This of course suits the politicians who lead Ireland, eager to transform it into a carbon copy of every other European state with divorce, contraception and abortion ever available and with atheism as the de facto state religion. Irish leftism, always of the most infantile variety, has eagerly joined in, along with academia and entertainment. The attitude of the Church in Ireland has been, by and large, “Please sir, may I have another!” with most priests and prelates seeming to desire to become a Catholic Lite Church that will not utter a word troubling to their new lords and mistresses, the chattering classes in government and out.

    Realizing this, I turned a jaundiced eye to endless stories about nuns supposedly casting the bodies of some 800 children into a septic tank at a home for unwed mothers in Tuam, County Galway, between 1925-1961.

    Go here to Salon to see a prime example of the Catholic bashing way the story was played.

    Besides the anti-Catholic hysteria, the thing that struck me about the stories was the sheer ignorance displayed: ignorance of the death rate of children in Ireland in pre-antibiotic days, ignorance that homes for unwed mothers run by religious orders were often used for caring for kids with mortal illnesses, ignorance as to the difficulties involved in using a septic tank to hold even a small number of bodies, let alone 800.

    Well, the truth is starting to come out. Ironically it is from the local historian Catherine Corless, who was cited in all the stories for bringing this to light, but apparently wasn’t listened to very carefully by a media eager to hear what they wished to hear:

    What has upset, confused and dismayed her in recent days is the speculative nature of much of the reporting around the story, particularly about what happened to the children after they died. “I never used that word ‘dumped’,” she says again, with distress. “I just wanted those children to be remembered and for their names to go up on a plaque. That was why I did this project, and now it has taken [on] a life of its own.”

    In 2012 Corless published an article entitled “The Home” in the annual Journal of the Old Tuam Society. By then she had discovered that the 796 children had died while at St Mary’s, although she did not yet have all of their death certificates.

    She also discovered that there were no burial records for the children and that they had not been interred in any of the local public cemeteries. In her article she concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner.

    Go here to the Irish Times to read the rest. Go here to The Telegraph for more facts that do not fit the preferred anti-Catholic media narrative of this story. What becomes clear from the story is that there is no way that 800 bodies could have placed in a septic tank, and that what likely happened to the children who died at the home for unwed mothers, who all had death certificates by the way, is that they were buried in an informal grave yard either behind the home or near it, such informal grave yards existing all across Ireland for the, often unwanted, children of the poor.

    Let us be quite blunt shall we? It is the Church, and only the Church, and other Christian churches, who tend to care two cents for helpless people without money like unwed mothers and their kids. The nuns who ran the home for unwed mothers from 1925-1961 were dealing with a situation that the population at large and the State wished to ignore. The nuns saved all they were able and gave kind care to those they could not save and buried them when their families turned their backs with cold indifference. Now we live in more enlightened times. Abortion is used to cull the ranks of the poor, and, along with contraception, keeps their ranks down. Welfare checks are used to allow society to turn away with a “clean” conscience, at least until the welfare checks no longer can be summoned out of increasingly thin air. The nuns who ran the home are no longer needed for the moment, so their memories can be damned by knaves and fools not fit to untie their shoe laces.

    Update: Carolyn Farrow has done yeoman’s work on this story. Go here to read her posts.

    - See more at: http://the-american-catholic.com/2014/06/09/irish-catholic-bashing-and-the-

    http://the-american-catholic.com/2014/06/09/irish-catholic-bashing-and-the-truth/
     
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  10. maryrose

    maryrose Powers

    I was out of the country when this story broke and I was shocked when I came back when I read the media reports. As the days pass the truth is coming more to the fore. I realize that there are a lot of women are carrying heavy burdens because they had to go to a mother and baby home and the baby was given up for adoption. Looking back on their sad experience they are trying to blame someone and it is too easy to target the nuns who sacrificed their lives meeting a social need in Ireland. I think the main sin in Ireland going back is 'cover up and deny' and unforgiveness. We need to understand our history and examine it and the affect on the national psyche in a non emotive way. If we are to have an inquiry into this it should include the historical context. I always think it interesting that most Irish families are unable to tell you how their immediate ancestors fared in the famine. which raged until the late 1800's probably in the life of some of our great grandparents. I think that experience left a huge wound on families and as a result we fail to face up to the realities of our actions. I think survivor guilt is present in a big way. Maybe in this generation we will begin to heal the wounds that people are carrying and give a forum to those who suffer to express their grief. As a country we need to face the past in truth and compassion and a spirit of forgiveness. I am hopeful because of the recent visits of the Queen to Ireland and our President visiting Britain. I believe there is now a will to try and find forgiveness and a way forward even though there are still many potholes but we all have to make an effort to forgive. If we can travel that road then we can begin to forgive ourselves. At the end of all this I think we will be a much humbler people and then the Holy Spirit can do his work.
    Mary
     
  11. Indy

    Indy Praying

    Atheist Brendan O’Neill, editor of Spiked Online, criticizes "crazed claims" about Bons Secours Sisters’ St. Mary’s home for unwed mothers

    http://www.catholicworldreport.com/...ns_and_myths_about_ireland_child_burials.aspx


     
  12. Miriam

    Miriam Archangels

    There are many such mass graves spread all over the Country. There is a mass grave a mile from where I live in Galway, where babies and famine victims are buried. I walked by there today and took these pics with my phone.....May the rest in peace.


    20140612_203815.jpg 20140612_203801.jpg

    2.jpg
     
    sparrow and Indy like this.
  13. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    Actually Philip Boucher Hayes, for RTE's drivetime, has greatly improved our knowledge in a radio interview he did. It turns out there were tunnels on the site, created as part of WWII air raid shelters or constructed earlier, and the nuns had a proper crypt all laid out there with the bodies on shelves and encased in shrouds etc.

    Nothing improper at all and absolutely no reason now whatsoever to believe that that mass grave with bones here and there had anything to do with the Home and the nuns.

    A surprise, not!:)
     
  14. miker

    miker Powers

    Indy likes this.
  15. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    Speaking of long lost Irishmen, My younger sister sent me the results of her DNA Test:
    60% Irish, 33% Great Britain and 2% Iberian Peninsula .... could this 2% be a Black Irishman from The Armada days? :) My test is still pending ..... !!!???
    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     

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