Excellent point, Adoremus. Throughout his blog entry, Charlie highlighted two interlocking realities: orthodoxy and the papacy. As Catholics we trust in the promises of Christ regarding Peter, but to do so means that one cannot both pursue orthodoxy and reject the Pope. The temptation for traditionalists and those clinging too tightly to a particular private revelation, is for their trust to shift away from the promised Rock and the Magisterium. Safe in the Barque of Peter!
This is the stuff of apostasy and schism: http://m.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/german-bishops-planning-secret-bombshell#.VHC0Xtm9Kc0 German Bishops to Unveil 'Hidden Bombshell' Posted by Edward Pentin on Saturday Nov 22nd, 2014 Excerpt: If the German Church goes ahead with its proposed adaptation to labor law, it will be just the latest in a series of efforts on the part of the German Church to accommodate the Church’s teaching to secularist trends. Cardinal Reinhard Marx, president of the country’s episcopal conference, told reporters during the synod on the family last month that a strong majority of German bishops supported Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to allow some divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Holy Communion. “They’re trying to change doctrine through these subtle means,” a source in the German Church said. “It’s therefore important these efforts are exposed as this year, ahead of the next synod, will be decisive.” This general attitude of many of Germany’s bishops also runs contrary to what Benedict XVI said during his famous “Entweltichung” speech when visiting his homeland in 2011. In that address to ecclesiastical and civic leaders in Breisgau, he said the Church “must constantly renew the effort to detach herself from her tendency towards worldliness and once again to become open towards God.” The Church’s charitable activity “needs to be constantly exposed to the demands of due detachment from worldliness, if it is not to wither away at the roots in the face of increasing erosion of its ecclesial character,” he added.
I wish the Holy Father would address this issue. It seems that the church is almost coddling this type of ideology.
I think the Great Apostasy is linked to the Mystery of Iniquity that is ushered in by the Antichrist. The Antichrist and False Prophet will not be religious leaders. They will come from the political and secular world. They will not be Muslim, although this is becoming a popular misconception of late. Numerous Saints and Mystics have told us that the Antichrist will be of Jewish extraction although not a follower of the Laws handed down by Moses. In fact, the Antichrist and False Prophet will be militant atheists. I have always though someone like Richard Dawkins would represent a good candidate for the False Prophet, because he fits the mold: he speaks like a Dragon and seduces the Faithful into Apostasy.
I agree that the apostasy is nearing its end, in relation to how many years we have been in it and how many are left. But I have to qualify this by saying the worst of the great apostasy has yet to begin and when it does you will know it, because if you are open about your Catholic belief you will be persecuted to no end.
You couldn't have said better, obedience requires humility. God is in control, we are here to save our souls and help others in the process. We can not save the world and go against what it is written, whatever happens I will stay with the church even if it turns painful in the future, I'd rather die as a simple ignorant catholic than a self righteous apostate.
Just look at the dire present state of much of the Anglican communion and the doctrinal capitulation of the Protestant 'mainline' denominations, plus the stranglehold that modernist 'scholarship' has acquired over academic theology over a period of nearly 200 years). This shows no signs of abating - indeed, quite the contrary: if at some point the dreaded One World Religion of secular humanism in pseudo-religious garb rears its ugly head, this surely is where it will be coming from.[/quote] I love it when you talk like that Peter B. View attachment 2401
I don't think we should get too carried away with the notion that the apostasy will be led from the so called right. If anything, traditionalists (i consider myself to be a tradional catholic in that I accept the full patrimony of the magnificent heritage bequeathed to me by the Church) especially the more bull headed are more susceptible to schism than apostasy. That they would repudiate the faith is a proposition i find incredible. In fact huge swathes of the Church have been led by the nose into apostasy these last few decades without their even realising it. God bless, Malachi
To lead the "elect" astray, the enemy would only need to convince them that Peter is NOT, in fact, Peter. And I see this gaining steam among traditionalists every day. Obedience is easy when we are in total agreement with those in authority over us. The beginning of disobedience, in my mind, is finding fault with our superiors, paving the way to believing that they can't be led by the Holy Spirit, being totally at odds with our way of thinking. For those who are in a tizzy over Pope Francis, I have two questions: What has he done (by official proclamation) that is contrary to the faith? How does it fall into your particular mission to critique the Holy Father? Every moment spent on what Pope Francs might do is time lost to what each of us is called to do. Focusing on the failings of Pope Francis, as received by us second, third, or fourth hand, is a brilliant strategy of the enemy to make us not only ineffective, but useless as an instrument of the Lord. From there, it's only a hop, skip and a jump to leaving the safety of the Church.
I try to take the Blessed Mother at her word in her different ways of reaching out to us in the past decades and so I am putting forth a locution to Father Gobbi. The italian priest, Father Gobbi, received locutions from the Blessed Virgin Mary from 1973 to 1997. One locution dated June 11, 1988 is entitled The Great Apostasy and it is long but here it is....."On the feast of my Immaculate Heart of this Marian Year, consecrated to me, beloved sons, I am calling all of you to enter into the heavenly garden which I have built for you, during these painful and bloody moments of the purification. The hour of the great apostasy has come. What has been foretold in Holy Scripture, in the Second Letter of Saint Paul to the Thessalonians, is now on the point of coming to pass. Satan, my Adversary, with snares and by means of his subtle seductions, has succeeded in spreading errors everywhere, under the form of new and more updated interpretations of the Truth, and hs has led many to choose with full knowledge- and to live in- sin, in the deceiving conviction that his is no longer an evil, and that it is a value and a good. The times of the general confusion and of the greatest agitation of spirits has come. Confusion has entered into the souls and the lives of many of my children. This great apostasy is spreading more and more, even through the interior of the Catholic Church. Errors are being taught and spread about, while the fundamental truths of the faith, which the authentic Magisterium of the Church has always taught and energetically defended against any heretical deviation whatsoever, are being denied with impunity. The episcopates are maintaining a strange silence and are no longer reacting. When my Pope speaks with courage and reaffirms with force the truths of the Catholic faith, he is no longer listened to and is even publically criticized and derided. There is a subtle and diabolical tactic, woven in secrecy by Masonry, which is used today against the Holy Father in order to bring ridicule upon his person and his work and to neutralize his Magisterium. Those children of mine who, often unknowingly, allow themselves to be carried along by this wave of error and of evil are victims of the great apostasy. Many bishops, priests, religious and faithful are victims of the great apostasy. In these times, in the Catholic Church, there will remain a little remnant who will be faithful to Christ, to the Gospel and to its entire truth. The little remnant will form a little flock, all guarded in the depths of my Immaculate Heart. This little flock will be made up of those bishops, priests, religious and faithful who will remain strongly united to the Pope, all gathered together in the cenacle of my Immaculate Heart, in an act of unceasing prayer, of continual immolation, of total offering to prepare the painful way for the second and glorious coming of my Son Jesus. On this feast of mine in this Marian Year, I address to all those who wish to become part of the little flock the motherly invitation to consecrate themselves to my Heart, to live in intimacy of life with me, to become my courageous apostles in these last times, because the moment where my Immaculate Heart must be glorified before all the Church and before all humanity has come."
Hi Kathy K, The point of my post was to point out, very briefly, the difference between schism and apostasy. Remember an apostate is one who repudiates the faith. And, as I said in my post many have for so long now been so poorly catechised that they simply do not know or accept fundamental dogmas of our faith. The Church for many is an optional extra and Her moral teachings are openly rejected and scorned. This sadly is an undeniable fact. God bless, Malachi
How do we know the antichrist is an actual person? The church has made no official ruling on this. The term antichrist is mentioned only a few times in the Bible and is used in singular and plural forms, implying there will be both a particular Antichrist as well as preceding antichrists. Because of their heinous crimes, men such as Nero, Hitler, and Stalin have been termed antichrists. In 1 John 2:18 the term implies a particular man who, before the Second Coming, will persecute the Church with a ferocity never before experienced. 1 John 2:22 tells us that anyone who opposes the Father is an antichrist. 1 John 4:3 says, "Every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you have heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world." Bishop Polycarp of Smyrna (d. cir. A.D. 156) said in his Letter to the Philippians, "Everyone who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is an antichrist." Paul's reference to "the Lawless One" seems to be another allusion to the Antichrist. He's described as a man who will be empowered by Satan, come forth in the end times, savagely persecute the Church, proclaim himself a god, and, through the signs and wonders he performs, be worshipped by most people living at that time. Finally, when the time comes, the Antichrist will be destroyed by Jesus Christ when he returns in glory (2 Thes 2:1-12). By the way, the Church has made no formal definition on the matter, so Catholics are free to hold that the Antichrist was or will be an individual, a group of people, or a particularly wicked era. source: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/who-or-what-is-the-anti-christ
It is interesting though that both Pope JPII and Pope Benedict admired the thinking of this scholar re: the qualities of the actual person of the Anti-Christ: Sunday, August 09, 2009 Vladimir Sergeivich Soloviev on the Antichrist By Giacomo Cardinal Biffi ..<i>Vladimir Sergeevic Soloviev passed away 100 years ago, on July 31 (August 13 according to our Gregorian calendar) of the year 1900. He passed away on the threshold of the 20th century - a century whose vicissitudes and troubles he had foreseen with striking clarity, but also a century, which, tragically, in its historical course and dominant ideologies, would reject his most profound and important teachings. His, therefore, was a teaching at once prophetic and largely unheeded. ...... The accuracy of Soloviev's vision of the great crisis that would strike Christianity at the end of the 20th century is astonishing. He represents this crisis using the figure of the Antichrist. This fascinating personage will succeed in influencing and persuading almost everyone. It is not difficult to see in this figure of Soloviev the reflection, almost the incarnation, of the confused and ambiguous religiosity of our time. The Antichrist will be a "convinced spiritualist" Soloviev says, an admirable philanthropist, a committed, active pacifist, a practicing vegetarian, a determined defender of animal rights. He will also be, among other things, an expert exegete. His knowledge of the bible will even lead the theology faculty of Tubingen to award him an honorary doctorate. Above all, he will be a superb ecumenist, able to engage in dialogue "with words full of sweetness, wisdom and eloquence." He will not be hostile "in principle" to Christ. Indeed, he will appreciate Christ's teaching. But he will reject the teaching that Christ is unique, and will deny that Christ is risen and alive today. One sees here described -- and condemned -- a Christianity of "values," of "openings," of "dialogue," a Christianity where it seems there is little room left for the person of the Son of God crucified for us and risen, little room for the actual event of salvation. A scenario, I think, that should cause us to reflect... A scenario in which the faith militant is reduced to humanitarian and generically cultural action, the Gospel message is located in an irenic encounter with all philosophies and all religions and the Church of God is transformed into an organization for social work. Are we sure Soloviev did not foresee what has actually come to pass? Are we sure it is not precisely this that is the most perilous threat today facing the "holy nation" redeemed by the blood of Christ -- the Church? It is a disturbing question and one we must not avoid. A Teaching Unheeded Soloviev understood the 20th century like no one else, but the 20th century did not understand Soloviev. It isn't that he has not been not recognized and honored. He is often called the greatest Russian philosopher, and few contest this appellation. Von Balthasar regarded his work "the most universal speculative creation of the modern period" (Gloria III, p. 263) and even goes so far as to set him on the level of Thomas Aquinas.</i> http://papistfilioquistazymite.blogspot.com/2009/08/vladimir-sergeivich-soloviev-on.html And there are those today who have studied various personages of our time using such an outline of personality type possibilities....even to that <i>His knowledge of the bible will even lead the theology faculty of Tubingen to award him an honorary doctorate.</i> <i>Since 1977, the Cambridge Theological Seminary has attempted to identify who the prophesied Anti-Christ is.</i> http://www.whiteoutpress.com/timeless/is-jordanian-prince-el-hassan-the-anti-christ/ Honorary Doctorate of Theology, University of Tübingen, Germany (2001) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hassan_bin_Talal
And I appreciate you pointing out that difference. I was responding to this statement: " In fact huge swathes of the Church have been led by the nose into apostasy these last few decades without their even realising it." My point is that this could happen to traditionalists as well, if they are deceived into believing that Peter is not Peter.
Hi Kathy K, I would argue that that would be to fall into schism and would not of itself involve the repudiation of the faith. There are large numbers of Catholics who have wittingly and unwittingly accepted positions that utterly undermine and deny fundamental doctrines of the Church. It's not merely incredulity about one teaching or another. It is simply that they have been taught or accepted a radically different Gospel that has reduced Christ to a mere man and the Church to a mere human institution. They have lost the faith and may not even realise it. It is this loss or rejection of the faith that is of the essence of apostasy.
I have been grateful to Charlie J for reminding us that schism can come from the 'right' of the Church. With the rise of heterodoxy after Vatican II, it has been easy to identify the liberal wing of the Church as the source of all our woes. But now, thanks to the internet, many people with what we might call fringe ideas have been able to come together and talk to each other. I have a friend who is a Catholic journalist (I won't mention her name as I haven't asked permission to cite her) loosely associated with orthodoxy in the Church. Because of this, she receives messages from people who assume she will agree with them. Apart from the horrible anti-semitism of many (which appalls her), there is a growing nastiness about the present Holy Father. One woman whom she knows well and regarded as reasonable emailed that she is now praying for the death of Pope Francis. When you hear these things, it is clear something is not well with many on the long-suffering Catholic 'right'. My friend spent years fighting the insanities of the religious left but is now convinced that the 'trendies' are out of steam and ageing. They make a lot of noise but their numbers are few (think ACTA). The real threat, according to her, is from the newly-emboldened religious right - the ones who go on pilgrimages and pray the rosary and believe that Pope Francis is an anti-pope. It's all very sad. Interestingly, the young are now not interested in the 1970s model of liturgy. Those of my children who practise the Faith have both showed an interest in the Traditional Latin Mass etc. But my oldest daughter has moved from the 'traddies' because she discerned a lack of love. I think this nails it. Unloving. By their fruits you will know them.
Sometimes I feel like the Holy Father doesn't like certain people because of his biting comments about certain types of Catholics. It is like a dad that favors one child and criticizes another. The criticized child may search their conscience over and over again about What did I do wrong...why does my dad like so and so more than me. I'm trying to do things right by what Mom taught me, but dad just doesn't like me. Charlie J. wrote a blog entry and Kathy K. posted it here. Did you expect no one to counter everything that Charlie J. put forth? Did Kathy K. expect everyone to agree with her? The people that don't are labeled as 'unloving.' That seems to agree with the Holy Father's critical remarks like....'rigid Christians' 'old maid' 'Superficial Christians!' 'Pickled pepper-faced Christian' 'Creed-reciting parrot Christian' That is just a few of his gems. Really what are we supposed to think? Thanks Padraig for the time on this forum. God Bless you forever.
