Shortcomings of the Novus Ordo

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by Mario, Nov 22, 2023.

  1. Mario

    Mario Powers

    The following speaks of not a lack of what is essential, but of what was once customary:

    The clip below has started me to ponder more deeply the essential nature of every Holy Mass and how radically the Offertory was literally gutted. For instance, it caused me to want to ensure that at every Holy Mass, the ciborium is on the corporal because the rubrics of Liturgy require the victim to be placed there. I'm not speaking of the extra ciborium brought out of the Tabernacle after the Agnus Dei (containing already consecrated Hosts), but the one placed on the altar at the beginning of the Offertory. Anyway, this clip reminds one of what is essential for the hosts to be properly prepared for consecration.

    One thing I have done when assisting Fr. Francis is to kneel during the Consecration and to remain so until after the Memorial acclimation. I do this because traditionally the "Memorial had always been part of the Consecration (particularly of the wine) as attested by the words of consecration in the TLM:



    Novus Ordo:


    He shows the chalice to the people, places it on the corporal, and genuflects in adoration.

    Then he says:

    The Mystery of Faith.

    And the people continue, acclaiming:

    We proclaim your Death, O Lord,
    profess your Resurrection
    until you come again.

    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
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  2. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    They destroyed the rite so much so that it is in fact effectively a different religion.
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  3. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Sorry, Malachi, if I concurred with you, my conscience would cause me to abandon the Novus Ordo entirely. And in sharing the above I would accuse myself of living a lie. I cannot go that far. I have sorrow for the lack of richness, but believe the validity of the Novus Ordo remains. And I'm not sharing that out of cowardice, otherwise I would be a hypocrite deserving hellfire.

    I will have gone too far, my friend, too far, and most members here are with me hypocrites if we concur with you and continue in our so called blindness.

    Be careful, Malachi, be careful.:coffee:
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2023
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  4. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    I can understand your response but of course my own is nuanced and layered. To try to put it succinctly it would be to say that if we gathered the host of saints of ages at a run of the mill Mass on a typical Sunday they would not recognise that it was the same religion. There of course would be familiar points of references and hints of a common patrimony but for the most part it would be alien. Cardinal Newman said pretty much the same thing regarding the anglican church that emerged out of the wreck of rhe 16th cent. I attend the novus ordo most weeks but only for my faith in Christ and the knowledge that the good Lord has allowed me to come to know I would be utterly bored out of my tree and no longer catholic. It is emptied of ritual, of ceremony, of the sacred and is a veritable screen against experiencing the transcendent. I would say it was a mockery in its inversion but that would perhaps be going to far
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  5. Mario

    Mario Powers

    I understand your feelings. I think you trend on dangerous ground, though. It is one thing to say the Novus Ordo is impoverished, but why on earth would you participate in it during the week if you actually believe... in fact it is effectively a different religion.

    The use of your word, effectively, disturbs me.

    Definition of effectively: actually but not officially or explicitly.

    Also, Cardinal Newman was correct primarily because their "Sacrament of Holy Orders" was invalid.
  6. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    The relationship to God and the understanding that it engenders makes it effectively a different religion for those who know no better. This is precisely a chief reason why countless millions have abandoned it. You have to consciously understand it as an act of worship of God as opposed to a nice little enclosed circle, a community thanksgiving meal which the saboteurs planned all along
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  7. Mario

    Mario Powers

    The saboteurs, as you say, attacked on multiple levels, including lousy catechesis. Catholics who conscientiously and thoroughly taught their own children the Faith, while practicing daily family prayer, often avoided the meltdown. Putting loved ones under Mary's Mantle was a lifesaver.

    When Catholic life simply means "going to Mass on Sundays", disaster is already at the gates!

    Lord have Mercy!
  8. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I’m sorry you feel this way. Our Lord is there.
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  9. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I love going to morning Mass. The reason is morning is my best time of day. Reading through the lives of the Saints I think most of them prefer morning Mass. Also I think I read a recent poll amongst Catholics and they very much tend to prefer Mass during the week rather than Mass on Sunday because it is so much quieter and therefore tends to make it more prayerful, less crowded and noisy. I find this very much too. Whatever time I go to Mass or what day of the week it is I tend to head for the spot that is quietest and I can be most alone.:) Also I love being near where Our Lady is in the Church to be able to look at her statue. Also I especially love very old Churches, the older the better, with loads of nooks and side altars and tons of statues, polished woods, old stone, loads of statues, wonderful stained glass windows. For this reason Rome is heaven to me. Also I notice in Rome the Liturgies, Novus Ordo or Traditional are observed much, much more strictly than elsewhere.

    This reminds me of the Levites, the priestly caste who always gave the best to God in terms of Sacrifice. As the Cathechism said the Eucharist is the , 'Source and Summit', of the mystical life. So we want to do it , the Mass as well as we ever can. To give it our very best shot.


    1324 The Eucharist is "the source and summit of the Christian life."136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."137

    1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."138

    1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.139

    1327 In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith: "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking."140

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  10. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    Just to correct the misunderstanding. I do not argue hat it is not valid. It is valid but has been so radically altered in its celebration that it effectively would be unrecognisable as a Catholic Mass to Catbolics beyond this last 50 years
  11. Michael_Pio

    Michael_Pio Archangels

    Dear Mario, all your posts, I think you have pondered them with deep piety and conscience and prudence, and much wisdom - it is always a pleasure reading your writings. You pour so much into your ministry, I really admire that, especially your hospital chaplaincy and how you remained steadfast regarding the 'vaccinations', despite serious consequences.

    Thank you for the translations from Latin, I wasn't fully aware of this. The "mystery of faith", and how the wording was changed, is one of the aspects that do make me wonder about the Novus Ordo. More about this entire topic can be read in the 'Ottaviani-intervention'.

    Anna Katharina Emmerich had visions about the new Mass as early as in the 1800s. From memory, I think she spoke of a "protestantisation", although shed did not go so far as to call the new Mass a new religion entirely.

    'Pew research' is interesting in comparing Novus Ordo-congregations with Traditional Latin Mass-congregations. As I recall, it shows that the belief systems regarding contraception and abortion and also about the real presence of Our Lord (belief in transubstantiation) are quite different. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi - the way we pray affects the way we believe, which affects the way we live... Our former forum member SgCatholic, from memory, thought the Novus Ordo was "conceived in malice", and she pointed to Annibale Bugnini as one of the potential culprits.

    I fully agree with you regarding the lack of richness but that the Novus Ordo is valid. Our Good Lord himself proved this via eucharistic miracles, for example in Legnica, Sokolka, Buenos Aires.

    Personally, our small family attends the TLM more than 90% of the time. We do, occasionally, attend the Novus Ordo, when we are out of town. There are some very reverend and holy Novus Ordo Masses, based on my experience. I am sure yours is one of them!

    So very true - every point - same here - I love to be near Our Lady!
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2023
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  12. Michael_Pio

    Michael_Pio Archangels

    I can see both your and Malachi's points of view, in every aspect. Family prayer is absolutely key, I fully agree, especially the Holy Rosary, and daily, with discipline. I really have to improve on this, setting a good example. Today, we only prayed one decade. because of my slack . :(
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  13. AED

    AED Powers

    Tomorrow is a new day Michael. Begin again.:) I barely got my Rosary said yesterday. I left it too late so I prayed it but it was not of good quality. It happens.
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  14. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Just remember what I said. God has allowed this.
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  15. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I attend both the Novus Ordo and Traditional Masses every week. This is because I like morning masses , so whoever gives morning mass gets my old feet pattering through the doorway.:) I would prefer the Old Rite, but beggars can't be choosers and I am not too bad with the Novus Ordo really. I have read numerous critiques of the 1960's Mass but never really see any of the Traditional Rite. So while I love the Old Mass, here are maybe a few drawbacks to balance the books.

    I notice during the Mass quite a few people not following along by using an app or a Missal. But doing things like praying the rosary during the Mass. SO unless they can fluently understand Latin they are not getting to understand the Gospel and the other readings which are central to the Mass. As well as that I wonder how much else they understand of what is going on up there. Pope St Pius X himself commented on how vital it is that lay folk understand what is going on. I have sneaking suspicion that some haven't got a clue.

    As well as that Latin is taught pretty well nowhere now, so none has an education to approach the Mass in any way well prepared. So there is a really big gulf for newcomers to cross in understanding, this is not easily accomplished.

    Another thing is that there is a kind of narrative people buy into and so many think of themselves as not simply Catholic but Traditional Catholic. I don;t think of myself as Traditional, or Liberal of Conservative I simply see myself as a Catholic who loves the Old Mass. Just as I love the 1960's Mass, ( especially when it is done right, with sufficient reverence). I think some of these Traditional Narratives can be harmful. People adopt them because that's what they think they have to but into to be part of the club.

    Also, I don;t mean to be hurtful, but sometimes I think there can be a kind of holier than thou attitude amongst Old Mass followers. A kind of sense of we've made it, this is the Promised Land, we're doing things right everyone else is doing everything wrong kind of attitude which I find disturbing. Whereas if I go to the 1960's Mass I find very holy people just as I find very holy people at the Old Mass.

    Another thing there is a tendency in Traditional circles to regard everything in a binary , right/wrong, black/ white kind of way. To set the Holy Spirit like a fly in Amber in a system of rules and laws. To be rigid and kind of hard. I notice this in the Sacrament of Confession. TO be honest I have found some of these priests would scare the living daylights out of you.:)

    I love the Old Mass, the Old Liturgy, but I'm not really some kind of groupie to it all.:):)

    I would say one thing about the Mass, 1960's or Old Rite what really, really does make a big difference is having a truly holy priest say it.

    If you get a saint saying it, well you're in heaven already.:)

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  16. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I agree. 100%
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  17. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    Padraig you are bang on with your observations. I understand they are in the round generalisations but I agree with the main thrust of it all. I too only describe myself as a Catholic and a simple and terrible enough one at that.
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  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Malachi, you always come across to me as a devout Catholic.
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  19. Malachi

    Malachi Archangels

    I think if we can all hang on the coat tails of faith in these days we are doing well. To who else would we go? We knew these evil day would be upon us . We live "in interesting times". Have to re read my Lord of the Rings :D
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  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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