Discussion in 'Coffee House' started by PurpleFlower, May 2, 2021.
Imagine a mother permitting this. Horrifying.
I'm not a mother and I can't fathom it. Subjecting a 12-year-old daughter to being lusted after in theaters around the globe!
I recall around the time of "Pretty Baby" an optometrist inappropriately touching the side of my face. Parents weren't in the room for the eye exam. I am also pretty (but not gorgeous like Brooke, ha ha), and I've wondered. It made me (totally naive and innocent) feel uncomfortable and he had a look in his eyes. And it stopped there.
Perverts don't need encouragement!
I am 74 years old. I was taught with the simple English 'penny catechism' to the age of 11 and by very committed Catholics. At 11 I went to an Anglican school but attended Catholic classes with a priest along with other boys attending non-Catholic schools and, again everything was taught in easily understood black and white terms. We were taught that the Latin Mass promulgated by Vatican 1 was unchangeable. We were all familiar with the translation of the Mass and knew what was being said, as did every other Catholic child in the world as far as I was aware. I was scandalised when the vernacular Mass was introduced but otherwise things went on pretty much as before. If a priest said something, then it was true and no-one would contradict a priest or nun.
Then, when I was about 18, I listened to a priest on TV saying that he had abandoned many of his previously fixed beliefs and, for instance, told people who were considering changing denominations that they could do so in good conscience and that if someone felt closer to God in a Methodist service than at Mass, they should attend them. He laughed and said that 'I used to think that Protestants were heretics but now I know better'. I read an article by a nun-teacher about the same time in which she said that she told her students that they should only attend Mass when they felt the need to go and that otherwise it was pointless. I was floored by these things among many others, which contradicted everything that I had ever been taught and I became quite cynical about the Church and its previous claims to be unchanging and universal.
In 1965 (in provincial England anyway) few girls were willing to risk getting a reputation for being 'easy' and word quickly spread about those (few) who were and boys wanted a 'good girl' as a prospective partner. Drugs were beginning to be used but again it was a minority interest and I knew no-one who took drugs. By 1970 (in my neck of the woods anyway) pregnancies among single girls were becoming less and less scandalous and notable and drugs were becoming more of a feature in some people's lives - still only a few (and only cannabis at that stage).
Homosexuals were regarded by most with pity and disgust during most of my early adult life even after their activities were legalised and abortion was regarded fairly universally as murder.
And then fairly rapidly, the world changed and I now see things on TV, available to young and innocent souls, that neither I nor my wife would have considered possible in our early days.
This was also my experience of growing up in a Catholic environment. In Ireland it was pretty much like that into the 80's. We were about 20 years behind England. Things ramped up in the 90's and the fruits are being reaped in the past 10 to 15 years. We now have a communist state in all but name.
We should of been more vocal when they took out the alter rails.
I remember this distinctly.
This was one of the many things that Vatican II did.
One of the many things it did was it took away the importance of receiving Our Lord's Divine Presence in the Eucharist with solemn reverence. It was slow, incremental, and purposeful.
I often think of what Our Lord said to Lucia in 1929
"Make it known to My ministers, given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My requests, they will follow him into misfortune. It is never too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary"
Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
Well I remember Vatican II. I was born in 1949, will be 72 in July. My mother was a protestant convert because my Irish Catholic Dad insisted that we be raised Catholic. My Dad was an alcoholic so was oblivious to alot of the things going on. I remember the altar rails, kneeling for communion was so reverant, and we received the Lord on our tongue. Lots of people did not go to communion though. Because it was 'felt' that the people who took communion were trying to be holy and better than everyone else. So we would go to communion at Easter because it was an Easter duty. The churches were very quiet and beautiful, filled with religious artwork. But people were in a hurry to leave, and late getting there. It was in Latin so we used a 'Missalette" . . .I still have one somewhere. I always looked forward to learning latin in school, but the year I was to start they dropped the class! And my mother was always opposed to a religious life, she said Priests and Nuns were selfish because they did not get married and have children. She liked when the Mass was said in English and the Priest faced the people, it made it easier for her to understand. We did not go to Catholic school, we didn't have the money and I'm not sure we lived near a Catholic school. We never prayed at home, to be religious at all was a a sign of weakness. My mother was in favor of abortion, her and I used to have heated debates on it. In the late 1960's they brought in general confession. No individual confessions, just a service. So many people went to that and wow, everyone started going to communion then. Hmmmmm. Birth control pills were promoted . . .the Priests said to just not confess it if you felt it was the right thing to do.It was good for the guys because they would not have the threat of having illegitimate children. But then, women were so eager to move in with men and now marriage is more rare. It took away 'commitment'. Lots of free love, partying during those days. I did not sleep around, I was not going to get pregnant. I was the oldest girl and the chief babysitter, the last thing I wanted was a baby, Ha! I did smoke cigarettes and drink but no drugs. I did not want to cross that line. I was not encouraged to go into a religious life although I think I would have liked that. I remember when I was 19 I ran into a Sister and told her I played guitar. She said stop by the convent with it sometime, and I thought that would be a good time to ask her what religious life was all about. So I dropped by there but she wasn't home, and I never went back. So out of us seven kids two of us are faithful Catholics today, two are Easter Duty Catholics, two are nothing, one is deceased. When my Dad passed, my mother remarried and ran back to the Methodist church. I went there to see what it was like but it was not worship it was entertainment. It seems like when Vat II happened the Church became more worldly. It was used for weddings, baptisms, first communions as a duty not a faith life. I met some Sisters in the 1990's and they were very liberal. They were pushing for women priests, I got into a big discussion about that and told them it was a bad idea. They quit wearing the habits and got into politics. I became more in love with the church as I got older and EWTN really inspired me. It was great programming! Not like the soap operas on tv and steady stream of immorality in the movies. I don't know how teenage girls can have modesty anymore . . .I would have turned purple with embarrassment in my day at things that are common now. In the 1960's when they were promoting 'free love' it should have been 'free lust'. Some people can't tell the difference between the two! Sooooo, life is a journey. Times change but people don't. Just because they don't have the traditional latin Mass does not mean Jesus has left the building. He is there if you look for him, not looking without but looking within. Some of my thoughts on that.
Thank you, Katfalls. There is a connection between the change in religious vocations and the conditions in the Church. Cloistered nuns and religious prayed for the Church and the world every single day, drawing down graces from God. There are not as many vocations now, and the nature of religious life has changed for many orders.
Thank you for this detailed description of those times! What a hard time to live through. Do you see signs of hope today, that something is turning around, or about to?
Aren't traditional, reverent religious orders seeing their numbers grow these days? That's going to be very helpful for the Church!
What a beautiful testimony. Full of honesty and reality. God bless and take care of you and your family and your husband. God meant for you to marry him, and for you to be the one who will get him to Heaven one day.
In answer to your questions as best I can. I was born in 1948, so when the Vatican Council happened I had no opinions what so ever. I thought the Pope and his Cardinals knew what they were doing, Jesus put them in charge and whatever happened would be ok. Looking back
1. I had heard that all the Mass requires is the Consecration the Gospel and the Our Father, and as a young person was open to whatever the Church made available.
2. I thought the new Churches being built were sad and boring. Still do. But Jesus was born in a stable, so who am I to complain.
3. I did not see the moral collapse as to do with the Catholic Church. It was mainly affecting the more affluent, or financially better off youngsters who could afford to drop out and party; whereas people like me had to get a job, get a life, and did not get involved with having a good time for ourselves. There were never any conversations in the family about what was going on in society.
4. I think the promiscuous lifestyles from the flower power era produced children with couples who had no intention of staying faithful. This probably damaged young men mentally, and left them feeling not needed. This would have ruined their God given authority over families in the long run. IMHO
5. I think the rock and pop culture was the most likely cause for drug abuse among the general youth. At that time pop and rock stars were being reported on the news when they were arrested for drug offences, and that meant a lot of ordinary youngsters got to hear about it, and wanted to emulate their pop and rock heroes getting into drug use. IMHO
6. As a young person I did not notice society changing, it all seemed like becoming more aware of what was going on in society as I got older. As a school age child, we were pretty much sheltered from scandal and degenerate behaviour.
For me the Church was a secure anchor. It felt like a safe solid harbour, even though the New Mass was the norm. It was still the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to me. I had accepted the changes believing it was ok, because the Pope had not said anything to the contrary.
It was ten years later, or when I got to my thirties I began to feel things were not as they should be. A slow realisation my Faith was not as it used to be, and that was when I decided on a restart. I would only receive Holy Eucharist on the tongue whenever possible. Because I felt it could be receiving in the hand was part of the weakening of my own internal Faith and Reverence for the very heart of my precious Faith.
Hope that will help from one persons perspective. God bless
I think the Blessed Mother has been very generous to you lynnfiat. Because you have said in so many words exactly what I have concluded about the Second Vatican Council. And the desolation of the the Holy Faith, brought about more even by the lack and loss of catechesis for the younger ones growing up. They are ignorant.
I have even noticed young men attending the Latin Mass who genuflect with their left knee. We should reserve the right knee for God and the left knee for the king. These young men have not been told obviously. This is ignorance!
And I have seen young women...Veiled! attend the Latin Mass with sleeveless dresses. We were told never uncover in God's house above the knee, or above the elbow or wear low necklines. Yet I see this at the Latin Mass now in the hot weather. These young women were not told obviously. Again this is ignorance.
I was born in 62 and being in a smaller town the changes took a decade or so to filter down to us. I was brought to Mass from baby hood in a beautiful dress, and by the age of two was also wearing gloves and my head covered with a veil like my mother. The men wore suits or their very best always with a tie and I loved watching my very masculine Dad kneel and humbly pray to our God. The whole feeling going into Mass was of great awe and something very, very holy even to a toddler. At my Catholic School we had mostly nun teachers who always wore their habits, and there I felt very loved by the nuns. I was told to obey them as I would my own parents and I loved them too. The nuns taught us how to behave in front of the Holy Sacrament as did the Grandmas and any of the older generation who were there with you. I felt like I truly was a child of our Holy God and this upbringing got me through some very tough times later on in life. I always knew who I was and that I belonged to God. I was so enthralled that once at age 7 I snuck off the playground to sneak into the church and go closer to the tabernacle to be near Jesus. I did get caught by a nun and got in trouble for going up on the altar! The nuns were extremely fussy about how we received the Eucharist and didn't want us to "chew" Jesus but let Him gently dissolve in our mouth. On the tongue kneeling of course back then. Anyway, when the changes came my parents stopped going (they also thank God both came back full force in their later years!) Our physical attitude was also considered a prayer, and we were taught to genuflect with the right knee touching the ground, and hold our hands also correctly. There was nothing wrong with our beautiful Catholic faith back then and no reason to change it. It was centered upon extreme reverence to Christ in the Eucharist and no one felt ashamed to show that reverence in every way possible, by their dress, by their attitude, by their physical gestures and positions of prayer, etc...
You have described exactly the trajectory I experienced as well. Almost point by point. And I am close in age to you. This was clearly world wide. A sudden falling away ftom rock solid Catholic truth. "If Sister Kathleen says its so it must be so."
I had a prof my first year of college-'Catholic college--in a theology class say to us "so how do you know the Bible is even true?"
The outright apostasy (not the underground one) clearly manifested after VII. And the culture devolved from there.
Not exactly to the point but I have picked up a couple of points of interest/query. Carmel talks about being told not to 'chew' the Host, I was taught to avoid allowing the Host to touch my teeth. But she also says that the nuns told her to allow it to dissolve. I was told that it must be swallowed before it dissolved. Perhaps someone can shed some light on these points, I certainly see others including priests chew the Host.
Katfalls mentions that most people took Communion infrequently and this was certainly my experience. We were taught to consider very carefully whether or not we were in a state of grace if we had not been to confession very recently and, preferably, the day before the relevant Mass. To be on the safe side, most people received on Sunday only if they had confessed on Saturday. I followed this advice in my teens/early adulthood. In the lead up to Easter and Christmas there were queues for confession because everyone wanted to be in a state of grace to receive on the feasts, that was the only time that more than a handful of the congregation received. Now almost everyone receives at every Mass and I often wonder whether the old way was not the best way in that respect. If you don't receive these days you are in a very small and identifiable minority and I am sure that many people receive on the basis that 'everyone else is doing it, I don't want to be different' (forgive them Lord!).
I was taught to let the Host dissolve.
I was taught to chew the host! But I went to catechism class not taught by Nuns . . .hmmmmm.
So were we, and told to try not to let it touch our teeth. Do you think that was to prevent little children using fingers to dislodge the host if it got stuck in our teeth?
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