Questions for those who lived through Vatican II

Discussion in 'Coffee House' started by PurpleFlower, May 2, 2021.

  1. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I'm 35 so have no firsthand knowledge of any of it. I would love to hear your thoughts, experience, and answers to any or all of these questions:

    1. Did you feel the intentions of Vatican II were a good thing? How did you and others around you feel about the new Mass?

    2. What did you think of the new styles of churches being built in the 70s/80s?

    3. What did you see and feel as being the cause of the collapse of morals in the 60's and 70's? Who was driving the changes? Was this talked about within your family?

    4. When and why did fathers stop being the leaders of their homes?

    5. When did drugs start being used recreationally? How did that start and who brought them to the young people?

    6. Do you think society changed most noticeably first, or the Church did? Or was it simultaneous?

    Even if you only want to answer one question or talk about anything else related to that time, I'd love to hear your thoughts and experience, or the experience of your parents.
     
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  2. Byron

    Byron Powers

    I was born in 1960, so I was young during the hippie revolution. But it was such a crazy time to be alive. While I watched clean cut, moral TV shows like Lucy, My three Sons, and Gidget, the world was transforming. It was unrecognizable from my TV bubble of a life. And I couldn’t stand it. I remember going to the University with my mom, while she did some volunteer work, and watching dirty looking long haired students walking barefoot. It was a culture shock. I never got used to it. The changes in the Church came quickly. I still remember wearing my veil. The modern Churches became the norm. Retreats were used as therapy instead of focusing on the lives of saints or the bible. Guitars were played, and Beatle songs were sung during mass. It was a “give peace a chance” generation that didn’t really want peace. They wanted change. Many young souls were lost during those drug inflicted tumultuous years. It’s a miracle my grandmothers generation did so well. Most held on to the past and their missal books. They never lost faith.
     
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  3. AED

    AED Powers

    You describe those times very accurately. Quite honestly I have zero nostalgia for those years between 1966 and 1973. It was a horror. A spiritual quicksand. We only survived it spiritually through the grace of God and the prayers of our parents and grandparents.
     
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  4. Denise P

    Denise P Archangels

    One thing I remember happening in those years was that priests began being addressed by their first names instead of their last names. Being in my young teens at the time I thought it was a good thing. But looking back I see it invited a familiarity that should not have existed between young kids and their shepherds. It seems that it diminished their stature and authority.
     
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  5. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    such an incredible palpable memory for me.....
    Guitar masses and liberal nuns who shunned their habits. Confused congregations split between the old and the new....My dad stopped going to mass for about 15 years as a Latin mass devotee and former daily altar boy in a big city. He wanted to be a priest, but when his dad died at 13, his path changed and he had to help support his mother.

    Thankfully, I got my dad back to church and he died a very devout Catholic attending daily mass and praying the rosary daily.....

    We did lose a great many souls.....

    sad.
     
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  6. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I believe my parents accepted the changes; because it was sanctioned by the church and they towed the line, so to speak.

    I was born in 1958 and so, as a young child I grew up with the changes over the sixties and seventies, always trusting our priests and bishops, because they knew best and I was so young, they were the people who were most holy, so we all just accepted the changes.

    The initial changes didn't effect me much, because I knew Jesus was truly present in the Blessed Sacrament and I attended daily mass before school, riding to Mass on my bike each week day. I wore a veil, it was called a mantilla and when I entered high school in the early seventies I wore the school hat.

    I loved Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, however I do remember something that really threw me, one day I discovered they took Jesus from the main altar and placed Him (in the tabernacle) in a side chapel, Jesus was no longer in the centre of the church!

    I was truly thrown by this, I was around 10 to 12 years old and I remember visiting Jesus during the school recess times very upset about why He was placed in this side altar, I used to tell Him that I loved Him and wanted Him back in the centre of the church , this horrible placement of Our Lord continued for what seemed like years possibly 3 years . Then our Lord was returned to His rightful position in the centre of the church.
    I have no idea why this happened and I don't think it effected my parents very much because even though they attended Sunday Mass they were caught up in their own problems at the time. However I instinctively knew that this placement of Our Lord in a side chapel was evil and I didn't understand why this occurred I was a child and what could I do!

    The next few years followed with great changes in our church, I became a young teen in an upside down world! My father was an alcoholic and my mother was manic most of the time (due to incredible circumstances that surrounded her infancy, she was adopted but did not know however my father knew and he had to keep these secrets to himself, it is a saga that should be written about as it is monumental in my mind) , meanwhile I was lost to the teenage emotions and hormones and trying to work out life, thank God for my Grandmother and her prayers. May she rest in peace. Amen

    By 1975 I was totally confused and in 1976 I decided to follow what was now presented as the saviour of mankind, the modern world!

    Between 1976 and 1980 I roamed and investigated the worlds offerings, always knowing deep down that I had left truth, my family situation was also very erratic , I returned to the faith at the end of 1980 without any help from my family (that is my mum and dad as they were still in the throws of their own pains and sufferings).

    I was still a virgin and wanted so much to regain my former knowledge and love of God and the peace He gives, so much so that I forego prudence and married a man in February 1981 at the end of my whirlwind hell. He was not a good candidate for marriage, he was not Catholic (but became a catholic to marry me) was involved in drugs and had a very hard upbringing however I believed God would change all this if I was faithful! :ROFLMAO:

    To this date I have been married for 40 years, am the mother of 9 children, two are in heaven, the rest have left the faith to some degree, even though as they grew up, I said the rosary with them daily, and I took them out of their catholic schools every third Friday to go confession and mass, however their father would ridicule my faith in many ways.

    I believe what Fr Calloway says... ie; studies have shown that if it is only the mother that has the faith, with the father absent or hostile to the faith then the chance of the faith being handed on to the children is miniscule no matter what the mother does, but if the father leads the family in prayer and love for God then the children fair much better!

    The above has been my life before and since Vatican II ! I remain with my husband of 40 years and I continue to Love him, he is a cripple now with many problems and needs much help, he is still angry but in the last 2 days has said a rosary with me, this happens from time to time, and I relish this. I push on like a drip upon the rock because I trust in Our Lords Jesus Divine Mercy.
    My two cents worth.
     
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  7. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 To Jesus + through Mary @-}--

    Born 1965, so my only memories of "The Hippie Generation" are fleeting, but they were fun and sunny (I was only four in 1969!). The neighborhood teenagers were into "Mod" stuff, all clean-cut and nice kids, innocent. Only Laurie had a rebellious streak and a Jerry Rubin poster in her bedroom, but she wasn't dangerous by any means. My babysitter, maybe 13 then, especially liked making dandelion bracelets and necklaces for my sister and me, and giving us piggy-back rides, and Liddle Kiddles Mod dolls. I do remember Apollo 11. For me, it was fun with the teenagers, a promising future (space exploration)...until 1973, when my parents got into a very negative Protestant current. So I ignored that and began reading James Blish's adaptations of Star Trek stories in novella form. :p
     
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  8. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    Thank you for sharing this! I really enjoyed reading it and am praying for your family. :love:

    You know, my grandparents, though devout Catholics, had a lot of dysfunction in their marriage too. They married out of necessity for my grandpa to adopt my mother born out of wedlock (my grammy made a mistake with a random fling with a non-Catholic who didn't want to marry her). My grammy never romantically loved my grandpa, and she would sleep all day and stay up all night to try to avoid him! She resented her life. But her faith was still just what she did, no matter what.

    I see this in a lot of that generation, on my and my husband's sides: alcoholism, loveless marriages, abuse... These were those born in the 30's and 40's, going through adolescence in the late 40's and 50's. So it seems there was already something hard and loveless weaving itself through society, somehow setting the stage for a rebellious quest for love in all the wrong places. Was it the wars? Did it unleash the demonic? Was it the communistic reduction of man to the intellect devoid of warmth and piety? Because most of my great-grandparents--those born around the 1900's, were gentle, loving, pious people (even if very strict in discipline). It's as if the suffering of the great depression and the world wars hardened hearts, instead of people drawing closer to God through their suffering.
     
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  9. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    Along that note (of the loss of gentleness and piety), when I read people's letters or books written in the early 1900's, there's such a warmth and innocence to the adults that you don't even find in children these days! They address each other as "My dearest ..." and sign their letters "Respectfully yours" or "With warmest regards," or "Yours truly"... Their speech is so beautiful and sweet, and the piety of religious writers is adorable and childlike. It makes me so sad that no one talks like that anymore. I was reading a book of letters written by children to Santa Claus in the late 19th century and early 20th century, and children as old as 12 and 13 signed their letters "Your dear little child"! :cry: If only children still considered themselves little children at 12 years old today! And if they don't, it is the fault of the parents and the culture that has lost every last bit of innocence so there's none left for the children to emulate.
     
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  10. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Fr Ripperger has some tapes about the generations. He speaks about the times you described, almost as you describe it. I’m on my phone and can’t link, but I’m sure you can find it.
     
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  11. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 To Jesus + through Mary @-}--

    The loss of innocence of children began (to my awareness) in the early 1980s.

    Sister and I, in the mid-70s, experimented with eyeshadow and lipstick out of fun. It was for play, and being silly with it. Same as other girls our age. Or we'd get into powder-puff fights with friends (talcum powder everywhere). It was just being kids / for fun.

    Around 1982, with the advent of Brooke Shields (her parents' fault), "Pretty Baby" came 12-year-old girls with curled or styled hair, REAL makeup application, and flashy clothing. A cousin, 10 years younger than me, looked just as adult-ish as I in 1988 (I was 23 - an adult; she was only 13). :coffee:
     
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  12. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Well, Josephite, you remind me of one of Jesus' names: Faithful and True! With Him at your side you shall ride on to victory and your faithfulness to your husband will be rewarded!

    Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True...
     
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  13. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    I came into the Church in 1993 and had no knowledge of the times prior to Vatican II, but I guess that Our Mother Mary honored my prayer to Her that I would never be misled, and so I recognized in the Parish I began my Catholic journey in as being quite liberal, which I will not go into. Over time, after attending both incredibly liberal Parishes to holy Latin Mass Parishes (which I presently attend), I see the damage that Vatican II has done. That being said, I do not believe it was actually the documents that caused the problems, but the way they were interpreted by the liberal Bishops and Priests throughout the world who were out to destroy the Church. Read the book’ “AA-1025, The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle”.
     
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  14. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I just read that last month. Eye-opening, for sure!
     
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  15. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    I'd never even heard of the movie Pretty Baby till I read your post...so I looked it up and am absolutely shocked and horrified. I can't believe something like that was already being made in the 70's!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
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  16. Mario

    Mario Powers

    1. Did you feel the intentions of Vatican II were a good thing? How did you and others around you feel about the new Mass?

    Whatever good intentions there were from Vatican II, the steady deterioration in the sense of the "sacred" was acerbated by ongoing changes in English translations (ex. with your spirit to and also with you). Statues removed, altar railings taken down, Tabernacles moved to side altars. Religious education in Catholic school greatly declined.

    I was born in "54 so apart from some vague notions, I didn't know what was going on. Some vivid memories: Msgr. Whatley, obviously upset, abruptly enters our altar boy training class -about 15 0f us were learning Latin - "That's it, stop! There will be no more Latin!" He turns around and leaves.

    Virtually overnight, ladies stopped wearing veils and hats to Church (my mother never stopped). No more new Easter bonnets to support the hat industry.


    2. What did you think of the new styles of churches being built in the 70s/80s? I didn't and still don't like it.

    3. What did you see and feel as being the cause of the collapse of morals in the 60's and 70's? Who was driving the changes? Disorientation due to political assassinations, free love movement, contraception, the collapse of religious congregations, especially the teaching orders and contemplative orders. Was this talked about within your family? Not much; I was from the generation where children were to obey, not to be heard.

    4. When and why did fathers stop being the leaders of their homes? Hard to say since my Dad, was rather autocratic, was the head of my family, though my Mom was more deeply spiritual. Dad was to set good example and to be obeyed.

    5. When did drugs start being used recreationally? How did that start and who brought them to the young people? I began smoking in 7th grade (35 cents per pack), stopped smoking so as to have money to drink in 9th grade, and drugs in college. I never interacted with dealers really, though I bought pot from friends in college).

    6. Do you think society changed most noticeably first, or the Church did? It was simultaneous.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  17. DesertStar7

    DesertStar7 To Jesus + through Mary @-}--

    1978. :)

    And shortly after, Brooke did the Bill Blass jeans commercials (with a slogan that contained a vulgarity). We're only 13 days apart in age, and I remember the tabloids on and on with glossy front cover photos of her dressed up like an adult when we were 14, 15, 16.

    Very sad. Her parents to blame.

    To Brooke's own credit, she did -- in her late teens -- advocate for virginity and waiting until marriage.
     
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  18. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    Thanks for your answers! Was Msgr. Whatley upset because there was to be no more Latin? Or was he upset at the Latin learning and wanted it to stop?
     
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  19. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Archangels

    Oh I meant to say 70's, oops
     
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  20. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Msgr. Whatley did not think highly of the changes wrought by Vatican II. He died in 1975.
     
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