Putin, well intended or not ?

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Elisa, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

    When I hear Putin here talking then I say : WOW ! SPLENDID ! HE IS DEFENDING CHRISTIAN VALUES !

    This is the French translation:


    This is the English version, but apparently not so very good translated ? Did anyone find a better
    translation ?


    What do we have to think about Putin ? I mean, he DID say the truth in this speech ....

    Padraig, am I allowed to open this new thread ? Because I see you closed some threads about Ukraine. But this thread regards Christianity, not politics. I mean that's what I think and hope.... :unsure:
     
  2. miker

    miker Powers

    I think in all of these political based discussions, it's good to think in terms of how the Church describes it, the roles of leaders and how we as citizens should act. I think this section of the CCC is helpful for us to read as we think about the political situations unfolding around us:

    V. THE AUTHORITIES IN CIVIL SOCIETY

    2234 God's fourth commandment also enjoins us to honor all who for our good have received authority in society from God. It clarifies the duties of those who exercise authority as well as those who benefit from it.

    Duties of civil authorities

    2235 Those who exercise authority should do so as a service. "Whoever would be great among you must be your servant."41 The exercise of authority is measured morally in terms of its divine origin, its reasonable nature and its specific object. No one can command or establish what is contrary to the dignity of persons and the natural law.

    2236 The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.42

    2237 Political authorities are obliged to respect the fundamental rights of the human person. They will dispense justice humanely by respecting the rights of everyone, especially of families and the disadvantaged.

    The political rights attached to citizenship can and should be granted according to the requirements of the common good. They cannot be suspended by public authorities without legitimate and proportionate reasons. Political rights are meant to be exercised for the common good of the nation and the human community.

    The duties of citizens

    2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

    2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service ofone's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

    2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:



    Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45
    [Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

    The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

    2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

    Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

    2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49



    When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50
    2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
     
  3. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I am very sorry to say, going by the news reports, it now looks like the US and Europe are now expecting an invasion of East Ukraine
     
  4. Elisa

    Elisa Powers

    Padraig, do you have a little small room for me in Ireland ? I come with my cat to hide.....:eek:
     
  5. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    Mike likes this.
  6. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus Archangels

    :cry:
    On the basis of this I'm afraid I struggle to make the grade.
    I repeatedly voted against our previous coalition government (in Ireland) because of their anti family policies, but when they were eventually voted out we got worse - the introduction of abortion.
    In my mind democracy as we know it is a failed experiment.:cry:
    Don't even know if there is a political party I could vote for in good conscience
     
    Miriam likes this.
  7. grimisocks

    grimisocks Principalities

    Elisa, it will do you no good to reside in Ireland. I know your comment was a light hearted quip to what's going on. But in all honestly, you should realise that Ireland is not the country of a '100 thousand welcomes' any more. Unless you bring coin with you (Look up Gabriel Byrnes description of 'The Gathering' tourism initiative). Our quisling government are enacting socialist policies for the good of rich bankers and corporations rather than look out for the rights of its citizens. You may look at lovely videos of Ireland and think "What a quaint little island". That's what the tourism chiefs want you to think. In stark reality, we are living under the jackboot of a big brother socialist ideologue. I pray fervently for our leaders at the prayer meeting I attend but it's in vain imo. Bring on the Warning sweet Jesus!!!
     
  8. Indy

    Indy Praying

    I still live in hope that the quite recent consecration of Ireland to Mary will help protect us and maybe provide a refuge to others who may be led here. But its true, our government are leading us down a very bad path.
     
  9. concernedforusa

    concernedforusa New Member

    Hello Everybody,


    Because I have two mother-tongues – Russian and the Ukrainian – it was no problem for me to translate a 2:49-minute French video, in which Putin was speaking in Russian. Below is a literal translation of his speech presented in that video:


    Yet one more challenge to the Russian national identity is connected with the events that take place in the world. Here geo-political and moral aspects can be found. We can see that many Euro-Atlantic countries, in fact, took the course of denial of their roots, including Christian values that constitute the base of the Western civilization.

    Moral values and any traditional identities are denied, including national, cultural, religious and even gender identity. There are implementations of the policies where traditional families with many children are put on the same level as the same gender partnership and where the belief in God is put on the same level as the belief in Satan. Exaggerations of the political correctness went amok to such degree that there are serious talks about the registration of the political parties which have their goal propagation of pedophilia.

    People in many European countries are ashamed to talk about their religious affiliation. The religious holidays are cancelled or are renamed in some different ways. They try to hide with some kind of shame the very essence of those religious holidays. And there are attempts to impose this model on the whole world. I am convinced that this is a direct way to degradation and primitiveness, and a direct way to a deep demographical and moral crisis of humanity.

    What else is the best evidence of the moral crisis of humanity as the loss of ability to reproduce itself? Today, practically all developed countries already cannot reproduce themselves; they cannot counterbalance the decrease in population even with the help of emigration.

    Without the values inherited in Christianity and other world religions, without moral norms developed throughout thousands of years, people inevitably will lose their human dignity. And we consider that it is natural and right to defend those values. We need to respect rights of any minority, but the rights of the majority also should not be questioned.

    At the same time, we see the attempts by any means to resuscitate one-polar and unified model of the world, the attempts to dilute the institutions of international rights and of the national sovereignty. Such one-polar and unified world does not need sovereign nations – it needs vassals.

    In a historical sense it means renunciation of national identity, renunciation of multiple variety of the world given by God and nature. Russia is with those who consider that the key decisions must be made on the collective basis and not in the interests of some countries or some group of the countries.


    In the second video with English translation, I was unable to hear the Russian speech. I think that the part of this video, starting on 16:18 and ending on 18:57, represents the part of Putin’s speech in the first French video. If there are some differences between my English translation and English translation presented in the second video – it is only because, in the video the interpreters needed to translate simultaneously as Putin was speaking, while I translated literally, stopping the French video and listening again when I needed.


    I hope that my translation will help.


    God Bless!


    concernedforusa
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
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  10. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    Putin is a lot like Constantine. Constantine did some good things, but he did good things for the wrong reasons. He didn't really convert till the end of his life.

    Putin is doing some good things, like defending traditional Christian morality in his country, but not out of love for God or the desire to do the right thing. He is simply trying to rebuild Russian nationalism and reverse the demographic collapse of his nation. He is using the Russian Orthodox Church to further his goals.

    Maybe like Constantine he will convert. At present he is simply being a Tsarist thug in the old Russian sense. He has a lot of blood on his hands that will not be washed clean simply based on his rhetoric.

    There is no "good side" to root for in this war. Only multiple bad actors. Pray for peace, not for any one side.
     
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  11. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I have been struggling to 'assess' Putin for some time but Brian's description is the first I've encountered that I feel fits his behavior since he became President.
     
  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

  13. SteveD

    SteveD Guest

    Putin imprisons or murders his enemies when they cannot be terrified into submission. He uses the ROC naturally because it is so closely linked to the Russian fascism that he propounds while pretending that it is some form of 'democracy'. The ROC is a national Church with pretensions to spiritual leadership of the whole of Orthodoxy and ultimately the whole of Christianity exactly matching Putin's ambitions in the geopolitical sphere. They are well matched and as Putin takes the military bases in Crimea, the ROC take over the Ukrainian Orthodox churches which they claim for themselves.
    We are watching true evil at work, don't doubt it.
     
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  14. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    What a sweetheart she is:

    Ukraine Leader Tymoshenko In Leaked Recording: 8 Million Ukrainian Russians “Must Be Killed With Nuclear Weapons”
    March 24, 2014 By The Doc 8 Comments
    [​IMG]RT.com has just released a shocking audio recording between former Ukraine PM Yulia Tymoshenko & leader of the recent uprising and parliament member Nestor Shufrych.
    When asked by Shufrych “what should we do now with the 8 million Russians that stayed in Ukraine. They are outcasts“,
    Tymoshenko replied: “They must be killed with nuclear weapons.“…”It’s about time we go grab our guns, and kill those dam*ed Russians together with their leader.”
     
  15. SteveD

    SteveD Guest

    PROPAGANDA by a master of the art. The Russians will probably believe this rubbish, few in the west will fall for it.
     
    Mike likes this.
  16. concernedforusa

    concernedforusa New Member

    Ukraine Leader Tymoshenko In Leaked Recording: 8 Million Ukrainian Russians “Must Be Killed With Nuclear Weapons”

    I could hear and understand the whole tape in Russian. The man and the woman on the tape were speaking in Russian, which is not unusual. The majority of the people in the Eastern Ukraine speak Russian language. The woman told exactly what it was translated: "I would kill them with a nuclear weapon". That is all what I can say. I never heard the voices of Yulia Tymoshenko or Nestor Shufrych before, so I cannot confirm that exactly those people were on the tape. But, at the same time, I do not think that this tape is a fake, because millions of Ukrainians and Russians could immediately recognize voices.

    There is one more thing I want to say to SteveD. The Russian Orthodox Church is the ONLY church to which the Russian AND Ukrainian Christians belong. The Ukrainian Christians ARE the flock of the Russian Orthodox Church.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  17. jerry

    jerry Guest




    i particularly found the following comment posted on the youtube site apropos this video interesting:

    "
    The only thing that's happened is we have exchanged places. Russia has adopted our economic, religious, and social worldviews from 200 years ago. They are quickly becoming what we once were...a Capitalistic, Christian nation. We are literally facing ourselves as we once were at the height of power. How ironic it is that now it is we who are intimidated.
    "


    The question which is really puzzling me which i would be very grateful for more detailed information on, is what were Putin's beliefs as he grew up. When he was in the KGB etc.

    The same question i have in relation of all those that now attend the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia. How were they cathechised, who cathechised them?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2014
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  18. WRONG---THE Ukrainian Catholic Church has MANY Russians and Ukrainians in it. The Russians (especially the priests) RAN AS FAST AS THEY COULD away from the State run Russian Orthodox Church--- when they were told after they were ordained that they had to report the confessions of people to the KGB. That is a fact.
     
    Mike likes this.
  19. I wonder if they will protect the Churches also...

    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian occupiers

    Video - EuroMaidan PR YouTube Channel

    ‪#‎Ukraine‬ ‪#‎Crimea‬ ‪#‎Belbek‬ ‪#‎Russia‬

    [​IMG]
    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian occupiers

    Video - EuroMaidan PR YouTube Channel



    [​IMG]
    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian occupiers
    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian...
    YOUTUBE.COM|BY EUROMAIDANPR

    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian occupiers
    Ukrainian military in Belbek become a living wall protecting Ukrainian flag from Russian...
    YOUTUBE.COM|BY EUROMAIDANPR
     
    Mike likes this.
  20. concernedforusa

    concernedforusa New Member

    Of course there are the Catholics in Ukraine, as well as there are the Muslims. But the majority of the Christian people in Ukraine are the Orthodox Christians and they belong to the Russian Orthodox Church.

    As for Russian Orthodox priests running to KGB, this claim is not worth my response.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014

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