PUBLIC Mass suspended

Discussion in 'GARABANDAL LIBRARY' started by non sum dignus, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. non sum dignus

    non sum dignus Archangels

    You have also said that when things were at their very worst then the Warning will happen. How do you know this? Did the Virgin tell you or did you see it in a vision?
    A. The Virgin said that the Warning would come when conditions were at their worst. It wouldn't be just the persecution either because many people will no longer be practising their religion



    How many will just get out of the habit of going to Mass or viewing it online as this lockdown contines???
     
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  2. jackzokay

    jackzokay Archangels

    To be fair, it shouldn't.
    It might actually have the opposite effect, and make people who formerly took the mass for granted, appreciate it the more. That's certainly the case here, in our house.

    There are many people here on this site quite rightly lamenting the cancelling of the mass.

    But let me ask them this...
    I have 4 children living at home here, if a priest chose to run the mass locally, do I take them along? The youngest is almost 4. Does she go along? Do i take the eldest two? Or do I go alone? ...and risk bringing the virus back with me into the house? Infecting the 3 year old, the 10 year old, the two elder ones and my missus?

    Could someone who advocates the continuation of the mass thru this crisis please answer this?

    The bishops made a decision based on the information and resources at their disposal.

    No one on this site laments the cancelling more than the next person here on MOG.
    No one is holier than the next....

    But come on, this virus is lethal...
     
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  3. padraig

    padraig New Member


    'I have 4 children living at home here, if a priest chose to run the mass locally, do I take them along? The youngest is almost 4. Does she go along? Do i take the eldest two? Or do I go alone? ...and risk bringing the virus back with me into the house? Infecting the 3 year old, the 10 year old, the two elder ones and my missus?

    Could someone who advocates the continuation of the mass thru this crisis please answer this?'


    If you don't want to go to mass, well then don't go. Fine; stop going. No one is forcing you. Just don't go. Simple as.

    No one is forcing you to go to mass, quite the contrary. But the Bishops are forcing us not to go to mass.


    Some Bishops put an Interdict on the mass. Some did not. In fact in Poland not only did they continue to say the mass but to say even more.

    No one in Ireland can choose to go to mass, public mass had been stopped until who knows when. Weeks, months, years?

    No one is saying people should be forced to go to mass. What people are saying is that people should have the choice.

    If you yourself choose no longer to go to mass anymore that's fine; there's no obligation. But are you saying because you choose no longer to go to public mass that everyone else should not be allowed to go?

    Because this is what the Bishops are saying. That you have no choice. No one can go. There is no choice.

    This is the issue.

    Lack of choice. We are forced not to attend mass.

    This is the issue.

    Not that we wish to force other people to attend. If they choose not to attend that's their choice.

    We simply want to make our own choice and our own choice is to attend. We don't agree with that choice being taken from us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
  4. padraig

    padraig New Member

    There was an incident in Italy last Sunday I heard about. The Bishops had stopped public mass but the priest felt sorry for his Parishioners who came to the locked door of the Church as he said it alone. They begged him to let him join him. The Parish Priest said e could not disobey the Bishop but left the front Church door open. So the people knelt outside the Church looking in so they could join the mass at a distance. The police came along and broke the people up sending them home, threatening to arrest them all. They let the priest finish the mass but went in and warned the priest that if he did this again he would be arrested.

    Doesn':rolleyes:t this make you think?

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    It can be argued that we have a responsibility to the welfare of others, that if we willingly go out and acquire the virus, we can bring it back to other people, unknowingly. However, I do see that essential business is allowed to be conducted, and I also see that Poland is scheduling many Masses so that fewer people will be gathered into one place, just spread around in mass attendance. But really, there are so many variables and unknowns with this disease. I see both sides of this situation. Because I am naturally cautious, I don't even feel comfortable going to my parish for Adoration at this time. I'm being serious.
    Here in Maryland, no one can be in a group larger than 10 people. All elective health care visits and surgery are postponed. One of my check ups has been postponed to October:eek:
     
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  6. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Do you know how many people were in that group? Were they 6 feet apart?
     
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  7. jackzokay

    jackzokay Archangels

    Well, that may well be so...

    The decision however to run regular masses impacts others (over and above those attending) and new issues then unfold.

    Firstly, if the mass is taking place - is there a clear dispensation for those that choose not to attend - because of the very real risk of infection to themselves and to their families?

    Second, the safety of the priest..
    In any group of people, at the present juncture, there exists the very likely possibility that some people will be infected. This means that the priests (many of whom are elderly) are exposed to potential death on a daily basis. Perhaps they are not comfortable with this..

    Thirdly, who cleans and disinfects the church between the masses?

    Fourthly, there are people who will feel obligated to attend. Who will feel that attendance is mandatory.
    Should anything happen to these people, should they catch the virus and die, it will undoubtedly be blamed by their many detractors, on an individual bishop. This is a heavy weight to carry.

    WE ARE NOT POLAND.
    Poland is a strong, faithful catholic country. They have not succumbed like many other European countries. They remain faithful to Our Lord.
    This is not the case here. Bishops will be annihilated here for making a particular decision. It is a massive strain and pressure upon them. One they haven't, I'm sure, taken lightly.
    There are people, organisations, entities - as you well know Padraig, who will attack a bishop for the rest of his life, should they be able to pin anything on him with respect to the loss of life during this crisis.

    There are many caveats to the situation.

    Let's support our bishops and priests.

    They have enough criticism from the secular world to deal with, without their own turning upon them.

    On Sunday we all 'attended' mass here in the kitchen, watching a webcam on a computer... It wasn't ideal, but I'm hopeful the Lord knows why it is like this.

    During our family rosary tonight we'll pray for the reinstating of the mass at His earliest convenience.

    We miss it too, Padraig. You are not alone in this. May God bless you and your passion. It is much required.

    Jack
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2020
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  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

    'Firstly, if the mass is taking place - is there a clear dispensation for those that choose not to attend - because of the very real risk of infection to themselves and to their families?'

    The Bishops have already said there is no obligation to attend Sunday Mass. Period

    'In any group of people, at the present juncture, there exists the very likely possibility that some people will be infected. This means that the priests (many of whom are elderly) are exposed to potential death on a daily basis. Perhaps they are not comfortable with this..'

    If a priest is afraid to say Mass, why would anyone want to force him? If a lay person was afraid to go to mass why would anyone want to force them?

    'Thirdly, who cleans and disinfects the church between the masses?'


    I assume as always volunteers who cared enough to attend the mass.

    'Fourthly, there are people who will feel obligated to attend. Who will feel that attendance is mandatory.'

    For the umpteenth time attendance at mass is optional during the Pandemic

    'WE ARE NOT POLAND.
    Poland is a strong, faithful catholic country. They have not succumbed like many other European countries. They remain faithful to Our Lord.
    This is not the case here.'


    Very clearly this is so. What a pity. What a great, great pity.

    'We miss it too, Padraig. You are not alone in this.'

    Yes no doubt you do miss it. I miss it in a way that I would very willingly risk my life every day to attend it. As our forefathers did in Penal Times (and they brought their children to the mass rocks with them risking their lives too.)

    But they won't let me. Maybe I have a bit of Polish blood in my ancestry.

    Now if you can't think of any other hastily, far fetched and self invented, 'reasons', why I and others should be stopped from attending mass (maybe a passing asteroid might hit the Church) its time to move on.

    Like I say if you don't want to go to mass anymore just don't go. But let me go. In the Name of God let me go.

     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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  9. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    my feelings as well, good work
     
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  10. jackzokay

    jackzokay Archangels

    Sometimes your passion spills over into disrespect. Sarcasm is perhaps not best suited to this site.

    Saying that, I've allowed my passion sometimes to get the better of me in the past, and I'm not proud of how I've responded to some very good people on this very site.
    I've worked on that. Helped no doubt by getting to know these people better from their comments and responses..

    Yes, i think it best that we move on from this....
     
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  11. border collie

    border collie Principalities

    The option of mass outdoors should be considered imo.
     
  12. Arby

    Arby Southern California

    Germ Theory of Disease( 1860's and beyond)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease


    The germ theory of disease is the currently accepted scientific theory for many diseases. It states that microorganisms known as pathogens or "germs" can lead to disease. These small organisms, too small to see without magnification, invade humans, other animals, and other living hosts. Their growth and reproduction within their hosts can cause disease. "Germ" may refer to not just a bacterium but to any type of microorganism or even non-living pathogen that can cause disease, such as protists, fungi, viruses, prions, or viroids.[1] Diseases caused by pathogens are called infectious diseases. Even when a pathogen is the principal cause of a disease, environmental and hereditary factors often influence the severity of the disease, and whether a potential host individual becomes infected when exposed to the pathogen.

    Basic forms of germ theory were proposed in the late Middle Ages by physicians including Ibn Sina in 1025,[citation needed] Ibn Khatima, and Ibn al-Khatib in the 14th century,[citation needed] Girolamo Fracastoro in 1546, and expanded upon by Marcus von Plenciz in 1762. However, such views were held in disdain in Europe, where Galen's miasma theory remained dominant among scientists and doctors. The nature of this doctrine prevented them from understanding how diseases actually progressed, with predictable consequences. By the early nineteenth century, smallpox vaccination was commonplace in Europe, though doctors were unaware of how it worked or how to extend the principle to other diseases. Similar treatments had been prevalent in India from just before AD 1000.[2][N 1] A transitional period began in the late 1850s with the work of Louis Pasteur. This work was later extended by Robert Koch in the 1880s. By the end of that decade the miasma theory was struggling to compete with the germ theory of disease. Viruses were initially discovered in the 1890s. Eventually, a "golden era" of bacteriology ensued, during which the germ theory quickly led to the identification of the actual organisms that cause many diseases.
     
  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    The reason you're pushing so hard for everyone else not to allowed to go to mass, is because you're feeling so eager not to go yourself because you're scared silly and you're also feeling very guilty about it.

    That's the bottom line to all this nonsense. If you cared enough about the mass in the first place it would have driven out this fear. But you didn't care enough and so the fear remained.

    Like I say if you don't want to go, don't.
     
  14. jackzokay

    jackzokay Archangels

    Seriously!?
    It really is time to let this one go..
    Probably best we move on from it, lad.
     
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  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    As I said several posts ago... err... lad.
     
  16. jackzokay

    jackzokay Archangels

    I do not wish to get into a spat here, Padraig. Why are you making this into a thing.

    The use of the word 'lad' is colloquial to this part of the world, as I hope you know. It us not taken (or meant) to offend. If it has however offended you, I truly apologise.
    Please, cease this sarcasm and taking of offense. I do not wish in any way to offend you. The cheap shot about my mass attendance and that stuff, was uncalled for.
    I began by pointing out - on a Christian website, my issues in attending mass at the present juncture, and the fears I carry as a father of young children. As well as my support for our bishop.

    I did not expect this from you.
     
  17. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Prudence is a virtue. I am totally comfortable with erring on the side of caution.
     
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  18. Scolaire Bocht

    Scolaire Bocht Archangels

    Actually I wonder if the Man above has a plan for this, maybe he likes the closing of the public masses (there are the same number of masses said in Ireland now, only private ones). The truth is that there is a lot of sacrilege going on at those masses. For example I would say no more that 1 in 20, if that, of Irish mass goers who regularly receive Communion also go to regular confession, hence most masses are massively in breach of Canon Law on not giving Holy Communion to those in a state of mortal sin.

    For that reason I rather like the idea, but also I think the Bishops were right to do this. All you need is one outbreak traced to a given Church and all hell would break out against Catholics. But also we have to be clear that this pandemic is the real deal, its not remotely the same as the flu, it is likely to kill vast numbers in Ireland and it would be a terrible thing if x or y person was to die because they came to mass.

    I also think outside masses might be explored by some priests. I am not talking about a sheltered carpark but there are lots of places in Ireland which are pretty permanently windswept and I don't think there would be too much danger there. Also if some priests could get their hands on the full hazmat outfit could they hear confessions and, if the penitent got absolution, give them Holy Communion there?
     
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  19. Arby

    Arby Southern California

    I did some research on the internet, I found that prior to the 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic , nobody really understood the science of the transmission of disease. During the Spanish flu, many churches protested their closing , even banding with motion picture theatres to demand that they can stay open.
    In places where they did remain open, they found that it effectively nullified their isolation policy through high disease transmission. The church is not against science and common sense. I am just grateful that the Bishops relieved us of our duty for obligation to Sunday mass. ...And the mass goes on in other parts and nations.

    However, their is some fear that what is closed, may remain so....we live in dark times.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2020/03/influenza-pandemic-1918-churches/



    Sunday, October 6, 1918
    CINCINNATI, OHIO: Defying the health board order prohibiting all public gatherings, Father William Scholl held morning mass as scheduled at St. Joseph German Catholic Church. When a police lieutenant arrived on the scene, the priest “declared he was not interested in the order,” but police kept any further services from proceeding. The Enquirer reported “widespread indignation” against Scholl, with “dignitaries of the Catholic Church joining the protest against the disregard of an order that was issued to safeguard the health of the community.”


    Tuesday, October 15, 1918
    BALTIMORE, MARYLAND: The city’s leading Catholic clergyman continued to question why local churches were closed “while the stores, saloons, markets and the like remain open.” While recognizing public health concerns, James Cardinal Gibbons argued that “it would be a much-needed relief to our church-going population if they could be allowed to attend brief morning services… I am told that a number of calls upon our physicians are simply the result of nervousness, or the consequence of alarm. This might be considerably allayed by the reassurance of religion, and discreet words from our priests given the people in church.”

    Sunday, October 20, 1918
    MILWAUKEE, WISCONSIN: The Journal found that church closures didn’t leave the city’s “pastors with any surplus of leisure on their hands.” With the faithful encouraged to engage in “home worship” and read sermons published in newspapers, Protestant and Catholic clergy were instead devoting more of their energy to pastoral care and sick calls.


    Thursday, October 31, 1918
    DETROIT, MICHIGAN: The Roman Catholic bishop of Detroit, Michael J. Gallagher, joined businessmen and movie theatre owners in pleading for the statewide ban on public gatherings to be lifted. The News reported that those notables “were willing to have their edifices fumigated between meetings, to cut the services to 45 minutes, to employ special ushers, who would eject persons who coughed or sneezed and to require all worshipers entering a church to wear influenza masks.” But state officials weren’t persuaded, since “Massachusetts and Pennsylvania had found that the exemption of churches tended to nullify the effects of the closing order.”

    Friday, November 1, 1918
    DALLAS, TEXAS: With special permission from the mayor, Catholic and Episcopal churches planned worship for All Saints’ and All Souls’, with St. Matthew’s Cathedral holding “special services for the boys who have died in France and will have a special requiem celebration of the Holy Communion.”
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Plus, this situation is not like the times of the Mass rock. There was no pandemic contagion at the Mass rock.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2020
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