Prayer to avert a serious act of persecution

Discussion in 'Prayer requests' started by BrianK, Jul 15, 2022.

  1. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    But what often seems like a disaster to us is but nothing to the Lord.

    For the Rule was eventually restored, and even more importantly the humiliations St. Alphonsus Ligouri (sic) endured led to his exaltation in Heaven.



    From an email from Christopher Wendt
    from the Fatima Confraternity in association with Bishop Athanasius Schneider, discussing the saintly life of St. Alphonsus.
     
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  2. Cherox

    Cherox Angels

    I converted in 2017 and also have only been to one TLM. I agree with what you said.
     
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  3. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

  4. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I do denounce and condemn the cancellation of the Holy Mass to the degree that it is happening. Certainly.
    But it’s above my pay grade to change this situation. And I still retain hope that God will turn this around. If Archbishop Vigano can’t change it, we certainly can’t. But if not, then the Church continues trudging up the hill to Calvary in union with the Lord.
    I attend the NO in my neighborhood parish. I don’t share the disdain that Archbishop Vigano seems to have for that Mass. I have always missed the TLM which was the Mass of my youth, but God is present still in His Church, to this very day.
     
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  5. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Edit my post. I know all about Bugnini changing the Mass. I don’t like that he did. But after all these years, no Pope has rescinded the NO. I am just grateful at this point to have Mass, period.
    Imho it’s easy for people on Twitter to Pontificate ( pun intended) about this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
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  6. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    014FEE9B-62A9-4591-99F3-CF272FD9AD63.jpeg
     
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  7. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    11481365-FB82-4801-9F43-58EBAAE114CF.jpeg 76202B78-E9D6-40A9-A2CE-1BF1C8335175.jpeg
     
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  8. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2022/the-liturgy-wars-have-become-doctrinal-wars

    The Liturgy Wars Have Become Doctrinal Wars
    Many Catholics over the past few decades have studiously avoided the “liturgy wars” within the Church and, frankly, I don’t blame them. Too often these battles involve a lot of heat and not a lot of light. Catholic against Catholic can become quite vicious and personal at times. Better to simply keep one’s head down, bear silently with any liturgical issues at your parish, and soldier on.

    Because of this prevailing attitude, many Catholics have also only been somewhat if at all interested in Pope Francis’s efforts to restrict and ultimately eliminate the traditional Latin Mass. It doesn’t impact them directly, and it seems to concern issues above their pay grade. Again, better to keep one’s head down.

    The problem is that the effort to shut down the traditional Latin Mass is only one prong in a multipronged war by the pope against the perceived threat of “traditionalism.” For whatever reason, Francis seems to believe that traditionalism is one of the most pressing problems in the Church today and needs to be vigorously resisted.

    Now the average faithful Catholic might say, “But I’m not a traditionalist, I attend the Ordinary Form and I’m fine with Vatican II, so what’s it to me?” Recent remarks by the pope, however, shows that this attack on “traditionalism” in the Church goes far deeper than an attachment to the old rites—it directly impacts the doctrines of the Church.

    Last week on the plane back from Canada (it’s always on a plane, isn’t it?), the pope was asked about efforts to undercut Humanae Vitae and change the Church’s absolute prohibition against artificial contraception. His answer was revealing. Instead of just simply saying that this teaching would not—because it could not—change, he launched into another diatribe against traditionalism:

    But know that dogma, morality, is always on a path of development, but always developing in the same direction…I think this is very clear: a Church that does not develop its thinking in an ecclesial sense, is a Church that is going backward. This is today’s problem, and of many who call themselves traditional. No, no, they are not traditional, they are people looking to the past, going backward, without roots – it has always been done that way, that’s how it was done last century. And looking backward is a sin because it does not progress with the Church. Tradition, instead, someone said (I think I said it in one of the speeches), tradition is the living faith of those who have died. Instead, for those people who are looking backward, who call themselves traditionalists, it is the dead faith of the living. Tradition is truly the root, the inspiration by which to go forward in the Church, and this is always vertical. And looking backward is going backward, it is always closed.

    In other words, to think that the Church’s teaching about artificial contraception cannot “develop” is to be a “traditionalist” who has “the dead faith of the living” (and although there’s a lot of wordplay here, “develop” essentially means “change” in this context, since an absolute moral prohibition on artificial contraception can only be changed into something it is not). Humanae Vitae is simply “how it was done last century.”

    So, in the pope’s eyes, you do not have to attend the traditional Latin Mass—you don’t even have to care a lick about the liturgy—to be a “traditionalist;” simply believing that the Church cannot change her fundamental moral teachings makes you one.

    We are all traditionalists now.
     
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  9. padraig

    padraig Powers

  10. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Cardinal Burke is so gentle and so kind. So full of peace and wisdom. He teaches much more by the simply being himself than in the Wisdom of what he actually says.

    He reminds me of Padre Pio and the other saints when they were being badly and unjustly treated. My mouth used to fall open in surprise at the way they reacted . I used to wonder, 'How can you be like this? How can you remain so calm and forgiving and take all this without cracking up'?

    But of course God grants the grace for the occasion. What seems humanly impossible to us when others go through these terrible events is because we are not going through the fire ourselves. God grants the grace to climb the terrible mountain when it is time to walk the mountain, not before.

    May the Good God grant us a little of the Great Spirit of the Cardinal Burke's and Padre Pio's of this world when we to are called to climb the bitter roads that lie ahead.

    Saint Padre Pio's Prayer for After Communion.


    Stay with me, Lord, because it is necessary to have you present so that I do not forget you. You know how easily I abandon you.


    Stay with me, Lord, because I am weak, and I need your strength, so that I may not fall so often.


    Stay with me, Lord, because you are my life, and without you, I am without fervor.


    Stay with me, Lord, because you are my light, and without you, I am in darkness.


    Stay with me, Lord, to show me your will.


    Stay with me, Lord, so that I hear your voice and follow you.


    Stay with me, Lord, for I desire to love you very much, and always be in your company.


    Stay with me, Lord, if you wish me to be faithful to you.


    Stay with me, Lord, because, poor as my soul is, I want it to be a place of consolation for you, a nest of love. Amen.

    [​IMG]


     
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  11. Mario

    Mario Powers

    That was fairly recent! What prompted your choice?:)

    Safe in the Refuge of the Immaculate Heart!
     
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  12. Cherox

    Cherox Angels

  13. Cherox

    Cherox Angels

    Hmm, I have always been a searcher and seeker of truth. It led me to a few places that I knew deep down and studying that were not the truth. I started watching EWTN. I bought a Catholic bible and went to Mass a few times. I had been a protestant but I know that there is one truth and authority.
    Once I met my future husband, a fallen away Catholic we started the process.
     
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  14. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

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  15. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Thank you for your testimony.
     
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  16. Mario

    Mario Powers

    It's like reeling in a fish. Even if a fish takes the bait, I have to carefully reel it in so as to not put too much pressure on the line. Dumping on someone can push them away. We have to let the Holy Spirit do His part!

    It is like Our Lady who exudes loving patience! This is spoken by one who was burning Louis DeMonfort books back in 1982.o_O:confused::unsure::rolleyes:(y):love:

    O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
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  17. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Excellent analysis:



    https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2022/08/04/latin-and-gods-holy-people/

    Latin and God’s Holy People
    Anthony Esolen
    Thursday, August 4, 2022

    I do not attend the Latin Mass. I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass can be filled with beauty, but that the surroundings, the habits that have grown into prescriptive laws, the ancillary people and their actions, and the problems with the lectionary, especially in its English rendering, make that beauty difficult to attain.

    The problem is not that the Mass, as it is in fact celebrated almost everywhere in the English world, fails to be overpowering, like a Beethoven symphony. We cannot live on grandeur alone. We must have ordinary bread. But there’s a beauty to ordinary bread, too, the beauty of what is simple, wholesome, unpretentious.

    The old low Mass had that simplicity. You could say it was not grand, but it did not pretend to be. What you could never say was that it was ugly, silly, or sentimental. It was reliable, like a rock.

    Cardinals Cupich and Gregory, Bishop Burbidge of Arlington, and others insist that we Catholics shall not be united unless we cause everyone to give up the beauty and power they find in the Latin Mass – for it is there to be found, and even at a low Mass, the quiet power is as solid and confident and firm.

    But that is like demanding that we shall find beauty where it is not, because it has been shorn away, or where we are battered by banality or silliness or ugliness or politically motivated trimming of Scripture.

    It’s like saying, “You shall get rid of your altar rail, and you shall at the same time be just as profoundly touched by the excellence of the Sacrament as you were before, and by the unity of the people of God, humbly submitting to be fed by Christ.”
    It’s like saying, “You shall whitewash most of the paintings in your church, and you shall at the same time feel embedded in a family and all its family stories that extend over thousands of years.”

    It’s like saying, “You shall replace the chants with these songs here, by these authors who can’t write a lick of poetry and who have not studied Christian hymns since Saint Ambrose, songs that are at best sentimental and inoffensive, at worst stupid and heretical, and you shall sing, and you shall be lifted up in the soul, whether you like it or not.”

    It’s like saying, “You shall be content with Scriptural readings riddled with holes, and translated by people whose literary achievements make for adequate office memoranda, and you shall be stirred by their eloquence, nor shall you notice what is missing.

    It’s like saying, “You shall be content with prayers that ignore great fields of the spiritual life. You shall be content with prayers painted in orange, yellow, and white. You shall never long for the deep red of suffering and the somber blue of falling night. You shall want what is pretty and pleasant – never the dread of eternal loss, never a frank acknowledgment of how wretched you are, always a smile and a pat on the back. You shall buy what good feelings the huckster has for sale. You shall be happy with that, or else.”

    [​IMG]
    *
    Need I go on?

    “Boys, you’d better be inspired by the girls there to want to serve at the altar.”

    “Men, you’d better pay attention, and if you don’t like holding hands, we won’t miss you.”

    “Everyone, just because the priest is facing you all the time and beaming at you and mugging and posing a little, because he can’t help but feel that he is on stage, you must like the beaming, or you must force yourself to think right past it so you can focus on God.”

    It’s been observed that most people attending a Novus Ordo Mass do not believe it is valid: they do not believe that the Mass has the power to make Christ present in the sacrament, body, blood, soul, and divinity.

    If the cardinals and bishops I’ve mentioned think that is a dreadful thing, a sign of their failure, I have not heard it. Do they believe that the Eucharist is the only reality that can unite us? Or do they take it as a sign of our already being one, in our good feelings and a small and vague set of moral beliefs? That’s to turn our supposed unity into a group sacrament, and to reduce Jesus to a mascot.

    I don’t question the validity of the Novus Ordo. I certainly do question the efficacy, even the fidelity and the sanity of almost everything that has gotten tangled up with the Novus Ordo, which the despisers of the Latin Mass show no sign of wishing to reform.

    Take that whole package all in all. It doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked. It’s not going to work, because it runs counter to human nature, because it doesn’t acknowledge the full range of man’s needs as he stands before God, and because, in subtle but pervasive ways, it tends to make religion into a pleasant hobby and God into a hobbyhorse.

    I’m referring to the whole thing there, the typical experience of Mass since 1970, and I’m speaking in general terms that do not apply to every parish or, much less, to every parishioner.

    I’ve been blessed with pastors who understand beauty, and who keep in mind that God is the focus of our worship and not ourselves. But innovations that apply generally must be evaluated for their general effect.

    Perhaps the bishops are not thinking about the liturgy at all, but about the people – whose devotion they envy, and whose moral conservatism they detest. Is that it?

    Are they more to be punished because their churches are full? You might say, “Let’s learn from what they do.” You might say, “We should have real music in our parishes also.”

    Why are you not pleased by their faith? They believe that you bear them a grudge. Why do you prove them right?
     
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  18. Lois

    Lois Principalities

    Thank you for this! A whole lotta cogs just slipped into place. So much more obvious now as to why He chose fishermen!
     
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  19. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    https://wdtprs.com/2022/08/ask-fath...ics-attend-the-novus-ordo-wherein-fr-z-rants/
    ASK FATHER: Should displaced Catholics attend the Novus Ordo? Wherein Fr. Z rants.

    Posted on 4 August 2022 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
    FacebookTwitterCopy LinkMeWeEmailShare
    I begin with his peroration…

    Perhaps the bishops are not thinking about the liturgy at all, but about the people – whose devotion they envy, and whose moral conservatism they detest. Is that it?

    Are they more to be punished because their churches are full? You might say, “Let’s learn from what they do.” You might say, “We should have real music in our parishes also.”

    Why are you not pleased by their faith? They believe that you bear them a grudge. Why do you prove them right?

    Thus, the concluding challenge to bishops from thoughtful Anthony Esolen at The Catholic Thingabout the efficacy of the Novus Ordo as it is actually being used. His peroration is guided by the cruel treatment, inexplicable in large part, by bishops of those who desire the ancient Vetus Ordo.

    I start this way because of question that came in.

    From a reader…

    QUAERITUR:

    Should the displaced Catholics now attend the Novus Ordo ? why is is ok for priests to obey orders that are evil that are given by clergy who have no legitimate authority
    to issue such orders whose clear aim is to destroy the tradition of the church?

    Briefly, I am reminded of the book, Dominus Est!, that helped to put Bp. Schneider in the spotlight. He recounts how ancient martyrs died rather than renounce their Faith and the Eucharist because without the Eucharist they simply couldn’t go on, couldn’t live: sine dominico non possumus.

    Did Japanese Catholics, isolated from the institutional church and without clergy manage to hang on for years? Yes. They survived but they did not thrive.

    I’ve used the “survive/thrive” binomial for decades now concerning the Novus Ordo and the Vetus Ordo, about the old ICEL translation for the Novus and the newer, for how the NO could be celebrated and how it generally is. The idea is that a grown man can survive on the baby food of pureed carrots, but he won’t thrive. Something more substantive is called for. But when you are starving and can’t go on, that jar of pureed carrots looks pretty good. At least you have that.

    CAN’T go to the Vetus Ordo? You still need the Eucharist. All the time? Maybe not. But you do need it.

    Let’s go back to Esolen, and start at the top of the piece.

    Latin and God’s Holy People

    do not attend the Latin Mass. I believe that the Novus Ordo Mass can be filled with beauty, but that the surroundings, the habits that have grown into prescriptive laws, the ancillary people and their actions, and the problems with the lectionary, especially in its English rendering, make that beauty difficult to attain.​

    The problem is not that the Mass, as it is in fact celebrated almost everywhere in the English world, fails to be overpowering, like a Beethoven symphony. We cannot live on grandeur alone. We must have ordinary bread. But there’s a beauty to ordinary bread, too, the beauty of what is simple, wholesome, unpretentious.​

    The old low Mass had that simplicity. You could say it was not grand, but it did not pretend to be. What you could never say was that it was ugly, silly, or sentimental. It was reliable, like a rock.​

    Cardinals Cupich and Gregory, Bishop Burbidge of Arlington, and others insist that we Catholics shall not be united unless we cause everyone to give up the beauty and power they find in the Latin Mass – for it is there to be found, and even at a low Mass, the quiet power is as solid and confident and firm.​

    […]

    There follows a series of blistering commandments from the theoretical imaginations of men like Gregory, Cupich, Francis, along the line of “We are going to strip away everything you love and find helpful and, dammit, you’re going to like it”. Read them there and see if maybe that series doesn’t force an involuntary nod, jaw clench and perhaps a watery eye.

    My emphases and comments.

    […]

    I don’t question the validity of the Novus Ordo. I certainly do question the efficacy, even the fidelity and the sanity of almost everything that has gotten tangled up with the Novus Ordo, which the despisers of the Latin Mass show no sign of wishing to reform.​

    Take that whole package all in all. It doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked. It’s not going to work, because it runs counter to human nature, because it doesn’t acknowledge the full range of man’s needs as he stands before God, and because, in subtle but pervasive ways, it tends to make religion into a pleasant hobby and God into a hobbyhorse.​

    I’m referring to the whole thing there, the typical experience of Mass since 1970, and I’m speaking in general terms that do not apply to every parish or, much less, to every parishioner.​

    I’ve been blessed with pastors who understand beauty, and who keep in mind that God is the focus of our worship and not ourselves. But innovations that apply generally must be evaluated for their general effect. [The Novus Ordo is exactly such an innovation. It is, as Ratzinger aptly said, “The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.” Before the pewling papalatrous peanut gallery pipes in about Novus Ordo being a derogatory term, it is exactly the term used at the time of Paul VI. And let it be known that, in Classical Latin, the very idea of something “new” is automatically to be held as suspect.]

    Perhaps the bishops are not thinking about the liturgy at all, but about the people – whose devotion they envy, and whose moral conservatism they detest. Is that it? [I’m convinced that many of the people who are trying to repress the Vetus Ordo are plagued with a particular moral problem, one that allows demons to attach, a sin that cries to heaven. The prayers of the Novus Ordo were systematically stripped of concepts like propitiation, guilt, sin in favor of hope in eschatological fulfillment in the life to come. Why? “Because Paschal Mystery… and shut up, you Vatican II hater! That’s why!” They are right in claiming that there is a difference in the theology of the Old and the New. And, if you want to insist on “People of God” and “Paschal Mystery”, and that the Novus Ordo has – at long liberating last – got that, we respond that so does the Vetus, and it is has it better. Why better? Because in the Novus Ordo the Resurrection aspect of the Paschal Mystery is so emphasized that the rest, Passion and Death, is eclipsed. Problem: You can’t get to the kind of Resurrection we would prefer without Passion and Death. Suffering, reparation, propitiation are necessary to obtain the joy of Heaven. THAT’s what the haters of the traditional Mass don’t want to hear. It’s like the evils of the “prosperity Gospel” and “rapture Christianity” messages: reward without suffering. Again and again I say it here. It’s not just that these tradition suppressors dislike the tradition – and they do – they dislike the people who want it. Why? Everything about the Vetus and the people who want it makes them feel guilty about something they are doing, hiding, have done and feel ashamed about. That’s part of it, not all of it. The true, pure ideologue is a rara avis.]

    Are they more to be punished because their churches are full? You might say, “Let’s learn from what they do.” You might say, “We should have real music in our parishes also.” [They’d rather close a church than have a choir that could handle Palestrina, a schola that could provide the Proper.]

    Why are you not pleased by their faith? They believe that you bear them a grudge. Why do you prove them right?​

    Questions to be asked, now asked.
     
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  20. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    There is no doubt the Novus Ordo is not perfect far from it --

    But I have managed to survive on the crumbs from the Lord's table - He is present.

    It is a downgrade from the beauty of the TLM , which is a comparative feast -- we are left with a simple meal to nourish us - but nourish us it has, a starving person has no option but to eat what is given - may the Lord have mercy on us.

    What the Pope & hierarchy are doing is a travesty an evil - there is no doubt about it these are evil acts - the attempt to suppress tradition.

    It reminds me of Cromwell and the Puritans of England - suppression of true religion.

    This present incumbents in the Vatican are on the road to perdition and taking many souls with them --

    The greatest chastisment God can send is a spiritual chastisement and we are right in the midst of the greates storm the Church has ever faced.
     
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