Discussion in 'Prayer requests' started by BrianK, Jul 15, 2022.
I am afraid it is probably true that the Holy Father is banning TLM Masses. Though I am a little confused as to why it should just be in the USA? Presumably if they are wrong in the USA he must think them wrong everywhere in the Universal Church. Plus if they are wrong now and need banned why were they not banned a year ago or five years ago , or ten years ago? Why were they not banned under Pope Benedict or Pope St John Paul?
If they do ban them in Ireland there is little to be done, they will be gone. God's Holy Will be done. I heard Cardinal Burke talking about this in an interview with Raymond Arroyo and the Cardinal said that Jesus Christ would never permit the old mass to be done away with. I believe this to be so.
After this period of intense persecution it will return much, much stronger than every before.
My heart goes out to the TLM priests and seminarians especially though. Poor, poor men.
Personally though I mostly have always gone to the 1960's Mass because of my shift patterns. So it will not be the end of the world. Though I prefer the Old Mass. Still God's Holy Will be done.
My impression of the Holy Father is that he has an intense dislike for the USA and Americans generally. Even so it would be so strange if he did this banning thing only on the USA.
We will see.
Prayers at Mass, especially for all TLM clergy. I suppose they could take all this as a good sign. Great Persecution means they have done Great Good. The devil must be very,very angry at them all.
May God forgive Our Holy Father the Pope and lead him home to better ways.
…25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers treated the false prophets in the same way. 27But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,…
Good post. Of course, Jesus is aware of all of this. He was not popular with the powers that be, when He was on earth and afterward. He knows.
It’s in the CCC that the Church will ascend Mount Calvary before the end.
Saint after Saint was persecuted by the Church Authorities, even the very highest Church Authorities. This is especially true of Marian Visionaries. It's almost a badge of honour, a Sign of Authenticity.
I would wonder about a saint of visionary who wasn't hounded by some of those in power in the Church.
So it is a very high badge of honour that the TLM are getting nixed like this.
I realize this is a typo, but this typo contains an important truth - it is NOT God’s Will that the TLM be banned. It is simply demonic.
It’s ok to invoke a pagan “Western Grandmother” but the TLM? NO!!!
God’s permissive will
He’s permitting it
Obedience is a Spiritual, not a human thing. So Christ was Obedient even unto death.
Where Peter is, that is where the Church is.
I always thought Obedience was the most difficult thing of all.
These times are proving it.
St Padre Pio was such a wonderful example.
Obedience would not be worth much if we only had to be obedient to what we thought was good and right.
God will set all these wrongs to right. He is not dependent on us fixing things for Him. We only have to Trust.
You are right, Padraig. God is not dependent on us fixing things for him.
It is just as well that at least He is not depending on me fixing them.
I love the story about Pope St John xiii during the Vatican Council. He was tossing and turning and could not sleep worrying about it all. Then he gave up and said,
'It is your Church, Lord, you Take care of it!'
Then he turned over and slept like a baby.
As we pray and await the Lord to orchestrate a revival within the Church, let us rejoice in what the Lord achieved in Canada some 400 years ago!
St. Jean de Brébeuf
The missionary efforts among the Hurons were tenaciously carried out by the Jesuits; their method was multifaceted and required great perseverance. The following from Wikipedia describes certain efforts of Brebeuf. Notice how the Hurons had to reject their pagan rituals in order to be baptized!
Jean de Brébeuf's remarkable facility with language was one of the reasons he was chosen for the Huron mission in 1626. He is distinguished for his commitment to learning the Huron (Wyandot) language. People with a strong positive attitude towards the language often learn the language much more easily. Brébeuf was widely acknowledged to have best mastered the Native oratory style, which used metaphor, circumlocution and repetition. Learning the language was still onerous, and he wrote to warn other missionaries of the difficulties.
To explain the low number of converts, Brébeuf noted that missionaries first had to master the Huron language. His commitment to this work demonstrates he understood that mutual intelligibility was vital for communicating complex and abstract religious ideas. He believed learning native languages was imperative for the Jesuit missions, but noted that it was so difficult a task that it consumed most of the priest's time. Brébeuf felt his primary goal in his early years in New France was to learn the language.
With increasing proficiency in the Wyandot language, Brébeuf became optimistic about advancing his missionary goals. By understanding Huron religious beliefs and communicating Christian fundamentals, he could secure converts to Christianity. He realized the people would not [easily] give up all their traditional beliefs.
Brébeuf worked tirelessly to record his findings for the benefit of other missionaries. He built on the work of Recollects priests but significantly advanced the study, particularly in his representations of sounds. He discovered and reported the feature of compound words in Huron, which may have been his major linguistic contribution.
The marvelous story of St. Brebeuf’s determined efforts to lead his Jesuit band in converting at least some of the Hurons is an indictment (in my humble opinion) against the current course of dialogue offered by the Church and encouraged by the Holy Father. I agree good example and a listening attentiveness are necessary, but in the end the clear demands of the Gospel must be communicated. The following is extracted from Saint Among the Hurons, The Life of Jean de Brébeuf by Francis X. Talbot, S.J. (pages 204-205).
One old chief named Aochiati had been an intent learner and a persistent questioner in these conferences. Because, as he often affirmed, he feared hellfire and wanted heaven-joy, he asked for baptism and promised to keep the commandments. De Brebeuf doubted his sincerity and his future fidelity. While Aochioti was wise and amiable, he was rooted in his superstitions, and held great distinction of being master of dance of the nudes. In early December (1638), Aochiati begged more insistently for baptism. He was going to trade with the Neutrals [tribe] he argued, and might starve or freeze to death, or be killed by the Iroquois. Echon (the natives’ name for De Brebeuf) told him he must await until he returned. Despondently, he set out on his journey, but two days later he was back because the trails were too deep in snow and the Iroquois were threatening. Joseph Chihwatenhwa, who happened to be in Teanaustaye, held long conversations with Aochiati and frankly told the old man all that he must give up and all that he must do if he became a Believer. Aochiati showed such proper dispositions, that Joseph believed he would be faithful. Pere Jean, having made his own tests, agreed with Joseph. When Aochiati understood that he would be baptized, he asked the same for his two granddaughters. The three baptisms were scheduled for December 20. The night before, Aochiati held a feast in which he publicly renounced for all time any participation in any superstitions condemned by Echon, and in particular the dance of the nudes, and promising he would keep the Commandments of the God of Echon. With full ceremony, he and the two children were christened and he was given the name of Matthias, for the reason, says the chronicler, that “he was the one to whom the lot had fallen to be the first Christian baptized in good health and with solemnity in this village of Teanaustaye.”
With Chihwatenhwa’s advice, probably, de Brebeuf baptized eleven more of his most promising catechumens on December 24. All of them renounced Satan and all his pomps, all of them pledged themselves with Matthias Aochiati to observe the Christian Commandments. The villagers of Teanaustaye awaited the result; they knew that everybody baptized immediately grew sick and died. When this did not happen, they were astonished. On January 1, 1639, the fourteen new Christians attended Mass in the chapel of St. Joseph’s longhouse and declared the chronicler: “This is the day that we will always observe and recognize as that of the birth of the new Church of Teanaustaye.”
This is the difference between dialogue and conversion. Alleluia!
Thank you, Padraig. I desperately needed this message.
Just have a look at this. What on Earth harm is there in this that it should be banned?
I see only goodness.
This is NOT a simple matter of “obedience.”
I believe people are naturally drawn to order and stability. To me, the TLM draws people because it's orderly; for the most part you know what to expect - you can participate in the worship of God no matter who you are or what state you are in. No one notices if you choose not to receive Holy Communion because they are likely busy with getting themselves ready. This natural order leads to true unity and subsequently, accepted uniformity. And people who had the option have flocked to it since SP in 2007.
No one looks to see who's "waving" the music along this week or who's stampeding to the sanctuary to give out Holy Communion.
You really never know what to expect at the "ordinary" Mass. It's definitely not the "same" everywhere you go, no matter what they say or pretend to believe. Silence is rare. It's almost a set-up for distraction from the real reason for being there. They call it "active" participation; it can at times, be chaotic. And, sometimes, it's very reverent. And one wonders, going in, what will it be today.....
There's no consistency, no true unity. I say this as a person who has attended only 1 TLM in my life. Watching Mass on TV is not the same as attending in person, so one makes do.
My heart goes out to all the people and priests who are being affected in the most egregious way by this. It is basically spiritual abuse, born of those who for some reason seem to prefer chaos, or if you will, "making a mess".
God will sort this out, because while He loves variety, His works always are reasoned and orderly.
When false uniformity is imposed upon people, it will never, ever lead to true unity. It goes against the very nature of order, against the sensus fidelium.
Hopefully this makes sense...
What is the difference between Unity and Uniformity?
Unity: Unity refers to the union or harmony of a group of people.
Uniformity: Uniformity is the state of always having the same form, manner, or degree.
Unity: When there is unity, people tend to tolerate and accept differences.
Uniformity: Uniformity implies that everyone is alike, so there is no room for differences.
What is the exact date Pope Francis participated in the Canadian ritual? It might be interesting to make note of it since we later learned covid appeared the same day as pachamama. I am sure there will be justice served for this abomination.
I believe it was Wednesday,
July 27th ~