Please enlighten us: was the name Lucifer invoke during the mass of Pope Francis?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Tomdarius, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Tomdarius

    Tomdarius New Member

    Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus invéniat
    ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occásum
    Christus Fílius tuus,
    qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
    et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

    The video is captured here:


     
  2. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    Tomdarius, in an earlier post you say, ".... with the comments of the Pope and the advent of the Synod of Bishops, there's always a possibility that all our speculations could be true. I do not want to think anything negative about the Pope. But if everything that are speculated comes true, then I may want to believe that MDM could be true?"

    Are you sure you don't want to think anything negative about the Pope???

    Follow the Pope because if you don't you are going to go astray. Guaranteed!
     
    Indy, Miriam, lynnfiat and 3 others like this.
  3. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    Please stop trying to show Pope Francis as the anti-Pope. I find it depressing that instead of trying to show him not to be, so many people spend so much time trying to do the opposite. I truly believe that when the anti-Pope gets here, we will all know who he is from the very start.
     
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  4. Tomdarius

    Tomdarius New Member

    we are all catholics and we are ready to defend Pope Francis.

    All i want to have is support from you but instead, what i got is a vague, unclear and unfriendly remarks.

    The reason why I had posted this one is to provide an answer to a close friend who posted this video on my facebook wall.

    So what should i answer back?

    Should I answer the same as you did?

    Some of you are scholars in the bible, but the way all of you answers made it rather an uncatholic remark

    Shall I win her back, knowing she has been baptized as Catholic and educated in a Catholic school and now in doubt?

    All i want is an answer from a Catholic perspective.
     
  5. Blue Horizon

    Blue Horizon Guest

    Tomdarius "Lucifer" is also Latin for what we now know as the planet Venus.
    Its transfer to "Satan" came later.
    http://www.behindthename.com/name/Lucifer


    This video is true and a very ancient hymn of praise (the Exultet) to Christ only Sung at the Easter Vigil (and by a Deacon).
    The dawning light of Christ's Resurrection is likened to the Morning Star (ie Venus) which is the brightest heavenly body in the Sky just before the dawn.

    Get the real translation here - the Morning Star is mentioned at the end.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exsultet
     
  6. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    It all depends what your friend was asking! A good rule (from a Catholic perspective) is to answer in a kindly way, "Just follow the Pope"
     
  7. FoundSoul

    FoundSoul Angels

    Thank you BH.
    That hopefully clears everything up. To be fair, I never knew that about Lucifer meaning Venus.

    Tomdarius - my apologies. I misread your thread title and thought you were trying to infer that the Holy Father was honouring Satan (the anti-Pope bit).
     
  8. Ok, I deleted my remarks. Its almost 3am and I am tired. I'm sorry I jumped the gun. When I went to google translate and the translation came up, I thought to myself...that sounds like a prayer, maybe the commas are in the wrong places...BUT because David quoted an earlier post:

    Tomdarius, in an earlier post you say, ".... with the comments of the Pope and the advent of the Synod of Bishops, there's always a possibility that all our speculations could be true. I do not want to think anything negative about the Pope. But if everything that are speculated comes true, then I may want to believe that MDM could be true?"

    I assumed you were the one questioning the Pope and considering MDM..again.
    Sorry! :coffee:
     
  9. miker

    miker Powers

    There is good discussion of this found online at:

    http://www.catholicforum.com/forums...eone-s-claiming-Pope-Francis-Invoked-Satan-at


    The most informed response is as follows:


    the entire closing passage reads (Latin, then English):

    Flammas eius lúcifer matutínus invéniat:
    ille, inquam, lúcifer, qui nescit occásum.
    Christus Fílius tuus,
    qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit,
    et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

    May this flame be found still burning
    by the Morning Star:
    the one Morning Star who never sets,
    Christ your Son,
    who, coming back from death's domain,
    has shed his peaceful light on humanity,
    and lives and reigns for ever and ever.

    Regarding the reference in the Vulgate to Lucifer as the morning star, tradition holds that Lucifer was the angel of light, but fell from heaven over Adam's stewardship of the entire earth. Isaiah uses the metaphor about Babylon, drawing (scholars tend to believe) from a Canaanite myth to make his point to the king who held Israel in captivity.

    "How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High'..."

    Metaphorically, the fallen angel has "power" over the world until Christ, our true Light, enters time. Christ is the true Morning Star.
     
  10. Carmel333

    Carmel333 Powers

    This is again this uneducated generation that twists all things holy into filth. Lucifer means "light" and Latin is a very simple language that 4 of our modern languages were created from . In English, we have several words for each thing, but in Latin, that is not so. Take for example, soil. In English, we can say: soil, ground, earth, terrain (terra is latin for the subject), dirt, ....etc... if you see what I mean. It's kind of like the homosexuals taking the word "gay" and making it their own. The word light was around before the fallen angel Lucifer, and the word light will continue to be around forever. Just because Satan was originally named Lucifer, doesn't mean any reference to "light" from then on is calling upon him. ;)
     
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  11. Andy3

    Andy3 Powers

    Tom,

    I think in the future ask a more detailed question or give us your why's initially because when you are vague on line then people must assume intentions and human error sets in. When I came across this stuff before I was instantly angered and insulted about the twisting of an ancient beautiful part of the Easter Vigil into the Pope being the antichrist. When this question comes up in here and the initial inquiry is vague then Devout Catholics begin to feel the attack coming and their anger becomes righteous and justifiable to want to defend such attack.
     
  12. Andy3

    Andy3 Powers

    Another problem with the above is the way they change the original prayer to capitalize Lucifer to make it a proper name when in fact the true prayer is "lucifer" which translates to light in Latin. The more proper way to say "morning star" in Latin and what is all over the Latin Vulgate would be stella matutina. What is unclear to me though is why they use "lucifer" for morning star in this prayer when that would not be the proper translation of the Latin? However that seems pointless in this discussion because the prayer long pre dates Pope Francis so claiming he used the name Lucifer is not a valid claim since he was just doing the normal prayer.
     
  13. Indy

    Indy Praying

    Run from MDM and any thoughts of her or likeness, get behind this wonderful Marian Pope and pray for him every day.
     
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  14. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    Keep those guns in holsters :)

    Patience and Humility

    Brother al
     
  15. I find it MOST interesting that at the end of the video it says,
    "REJECT MARY AS MEDIATRIX!"

    That says everything....
    Remember what Verne said would be the climax for the apostasy???
    The 5th Dogma.
     
  16. Blue Horizon

    Blue Horizon Guest

    Andy I suggest there are very deep issues of "religio/political correctness" operating here wrt translations so "proper" is prob in the eye of the translator.

    What does seem to be certain is that Lucifer was a perfectly acceptable Christian name up until around 400AD.
    It had no particular association with Satan.
    The Early Church fathers appear to have been at pains to point out it was not a proper name for the Devil - it merely referred to his original state/glory.

    There is dispute, even today, that the original Hebrew passage in Isaiah (heilel ben shakhar) was ever translated correctly into the Greek OT (as "eosphorus" = lucifer = Morning Star =Venus).
    That is, the Hebrew was understood to mean "bright thing born of the dawn" so was well translated to eosphorus (lucifer).
    But others maintain "heilel" means "lamenting" so the phrase in Isaiah was poorly translated and refers to "the lamenting that comes with dawn."
    In which case using Isaiah to later associate Satan's fall from heaven with Venus (hence his very recent new name Lucifer) is indeed tenuous just as some of the Early Church Fathers maintained.

    In which case there is nothing at all pejorative or evil about the title "Lucifier" - it is simply an ancient, natural and beautiful description of the "divine" star Venus and how it brings the dawn ("fire bearer").
    Which explains why it could be used as a Christian name and why it gets into very ancient Christian texts outside of the Bible and applied to both Jesus and Mary.

    And this natural/mythical phenomenon was applied as a title to both Jesus and Mary in ancient Catholicism.
    To Jesus (in the Exultet) and Mary in the ancient Litany of Loreto.
    Actually the title is applied to Jesus in the NT as well. Its in Revelation 22:16 (but cleaned up as "Morning Star" and nothing about "Fire Bearer" (Lucifer)) and 2Peter 1:19 (which apparently should be translated "Lucifer" if Isaiah is translated "Lucifer").

    However, perhaps for reasons of "political correctness" you won't easily find any reference to "Lucifer" in the English translations nor the recent (ie the last 1600 years) Latin translations of those original texts which have perhaps been "circumlocuted" precisely so we the laity don't get unnecessarily discomforted.

    However, the very ancient Exsultet (only dug out once a year) didn't get noticed or "cleaned up" in this fashion.

    I would love to get my hands on a Greek version of the Litany of Loreto (apparently it came from the Eastern Church originally) to see if "Star of the Morning" was indeed "Eosphorus" (ie Lucifer).
    The Greeks don't seem to worry about these sorts of things.
    Unfortunately I cannot find a copy on the Net.
    The medieval latin version of the Loreto Litany never uses "Lucifer" of course, only "Stella Matutina."

    Strange to think that Mary also has the ancient title "Lucifer" (bringer of fire) - yet not so strange if we accept it is not a name of Satan at all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2014

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